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 How does Cover Actually Work?

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ShamPow1999
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PostSubject: How does Cover Actually Work?   Thu Dec 04 2014, 22:50

My friends and I usually play with minimum cover (which sucks by the way), but on the occassion we do play everything kind of gets messed up. Just for clarification:

Ruins with no bases - how does this work?

If your behind the ruin you receive a 4+ cover save. How far behind do you have to be?
When firing out of a ruin, how close do you have to be (from the window) to make it so that your opponent doesn't get cover from the ruin?
If there is a small pole which kind of blocks the front armor of a raider (raider front is pretty small), and this pole is from a ruin, do you get 4+?
Do you ever get a 5+ cover save from ruins?

Intervening Models

If you fire through your own models or another's models then your target gets a 5+ cover save

If there are 2 squads you fire through, is there a bonus?
If a unit provides 25% covered to a vehicle, what save does the vehicle get?
Can infantry units get a 4+ if they are 25% covered?

Thanks, just hoping to clear some things up.
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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: How does Cover Actually Work?   Fri Dec 05 2014, 04:42

Ok. So they have greatly simplified things

Generally, if 25% of your model is obscured. You get cover. That is mostly the answer to your various ruin questions. If you are "in" a ruin however. You get the cover regardless of how much or your model is obscured.

You will be in a ruin if your model is on one of the upper floors, or if it has a base.

For firing out of a ruin, your target does not get this cover. They would only get the save if 25% obscured.


There is no bonus cover save for firing through more than one squad.

If your squad covers. 25% of a vehicle it gets a 5+ cover save

Infantry would be. 4+ cover save if 25% covered by a ruin, but most other things will be a 5+ cover save

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PostSubject: Re: How does Cover Actually Work?   Fri Dec 05 2014, 07:14

No rulebook with me at work, but I'm quite sure that it says models in ruins get 4+. So being behind ruin doesn't benefit other that 5+ for being obsecured.

So when a model (can't remember if it is a unit?) touches a ruin it gets 4+ if it is othervice entitled to cover.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How does Cover Actually Work?   Fri Dec 05 2014, 07:26

I believe that's right. You get 5+ for being 25% obscured by a ruin or 4+ for being in a ruin.

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PostSubject: Re: How does Cover Actually Work?   Fri Dec 05 2014, 12:42

So what constitutes touching a ruin?
Do your models have to behind the windows?

And just to clarify, vehicles can only get a 5+ if they are obscured by stuff?

Thanx again.
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PostSubject: Re: How does Cover Actually Work?   Fri Dec 05 2014, 12:48

I don't think you necessarily have to touch a ruin, you have to be in a ruin. This, in traditonal GW style, is not defined. We use bases for our ruins and simply say that anywhere on the base (or higher levels) is in the ruins.

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PostSubject: Re: How does Cover Actually Work?   Fri Dec 05 2014, 14:47

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I believe that's right. You get 5+ for being 25% obscured by a ruin or 4+ for being in a ruin.
I don't think this is a valid call, and I understand why you're making it.

Page 37 has the core valid rule - 'unless stated otherwise, 5+ cover save, yadda, yadda' right?
Ruins state they are are 4+ save to models in the ruin, right?

So, your logic is - if a model is just getting 25% cover from being behind a ruin, they are not in the ruin and therefore get the 5+, right?

My counter argument - what cover save do I get if I am 25% obscured by a crater that I am not standing in?

That is why I believe being behind a ruin, and not in it, still grants a 4+ cover save.
Thoughts?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How does Cover Actually Work?   Fri Dec 05 2014, 15:01

I may have done GW a disservice. It appears they do actually define what 'in' and 'behind' mean!

Quote :
When one of the following rules refers to a model being ‘in cover behind’ a piece of terrain, this means that the model is at least 25% obscured by the scenery, and therefore eligible for a cover save. On the other hand, when one of the following rules refers to a model being ‘in’ a piece of terrain, this means that model, or some part of it, is actually standing on the piece of scenery, whether it is obscured from view or not.

So, to answer your question Thor, I think I would have to stand by my previous argument. As far as I can see, every type of scenery/terrain described in the rulebook is also Difficult Terrain. So you get whatever special rules apply for being in the terrain or the standard "Unless otherwise stated, a model in cover behind difficult terrain has a 5+ cover save." if you're behind it (unless the rules say you get a better or worse save).

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PostSubject: Re: How does Cover Actually Work?   Fri Dec 05 2014, 15:15

The behind ruling is in regards to the triggering of special rules. The one for ruins, for example, does not require 25% obscurement to grant a cover save.

I still submit that scenery has an inherent cover save value that qualifies as the statement otherwise in page 37.

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PostSubject: Re: How does Cover Actually Work?   Fri Dec 05 2014, 15:34

@Thor665 wrote:
I still submit that scenery has an inherent cover save value that qualifies as the statement otherwise in page 37.

I'm not following you there, I'm afraid. In order to get anything other than a 5+ cover save for being obscured there needs to be a specific terrain rule that grants you that save.

Quote :
Determining Cover Saves
If, when you come to allocate a Wound, the target model’s body (see General Principles) is at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer, Wounds allocated to that model receive a cover save. Unless specifically stated otherwise, all cover provides a 5+ save. Some types of terrain provide better or worse cover saves; when this is the case the cover save provided will be stated in the rules for the terrain.

Taking Ruins as an example, the rules say:

Quote :
Models in ruins receive a 4+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured.

In ruins. Not behind them. Therefore not an exception there to the general rule stated earlier. So if you are not in the ruins but are still 25% obscured then the standard 5+ save applies.

Contrast that to the rules for, say, gun emplacements:

Quote :
A model in cover behind a gun emplacement has a 4+ cover save

Assuming 'in cover behind' means the same as '25% obscured' then that is a specific exception to the general rule.

I think you may still be thinking in 5th edition terms where terrain pieces had different cover save values. That is no longer the case.

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PostSubject: Re: How does Cover Actually Work?   Fri Dec 05 2014, 17:18

That is still the case, also, unless I'm insane, they most assuredly still had the chart in 6th even if you wish to argue that they don't in 7th.

And though I agree with you trying to work out what GW means by 'in terrain' they actually define it different ways at different points.

That said, I think you're taking a poor RAW standpoint here. By your argument - any model occupying a tanglewire terrain piece receives no cover save, and only the ones on the opposite side of a unit firing at them would receive a save. You also are arguing that craters are better defense upon exiting the crater and that a ruined wall is better defense then a ruined building made of 2+ walls.

All of those can be argued equally well with the RAW you are placing at.
I don't really buy it. I think the RAW supports that different pieces of terrain have different saves associated with them, and that if you get the obscured save you get *that* save. Page 105 supports you more, page 37 supports me more - pick your RAW.

I suppose the true RAW endstroke is simply that all terrain must be debated and datasheeted prior to gamestart, so it's whatever the consensus/loudest arguer wills it to be and maybe that's a justification for the narf of it. But I still submit that the cover save aspect of ruins is calling out the lack of needing 25% more than 4+, I do not think cover saves are supposed to improve by leaving terrain and see the RAW that does not support that as more likely the true RAW RAI (and there's a sexy phrase to get to say)

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PostSubject: Re: How does Cover Actually Work?   Fri Dec 05 2014, 21:56

I have to say I'm genuinely not seeing anything RAW about what you're saying here. There is no cover save by default simply for occupying a terrain piece. Area terrain no longer exists. There are certain terrain pieces that offer a save for occupying them, such as Ruins and the rules for these items specify what that save is. Absent such a rule, models do not receive a save for being in terrain unless that terrain obscures 25% or more of the model, in which case they receive either a 5+ save or the save specified in the rules for that terrain piece.

Of the examples you mentioned in your post, a model in a tanglewire terrain piece would only receive a cover save if they were 25% obscured from the firer. That save would be 6+ due to the rules of tanglewire, which makes sense to me as barbed wire doesn't really offer a lot of protection against bullets, lasers etc.

Craters offer a 6+ simply for being in the crater, increasing to 5+ if the model is 25% obscured whilst either in the crater or behind it.

I'm not sure what the argument about ruins is. Both would provide 4+ if you're in the ruin and 5+ if you're simply obscured by, but not in, the ruin.

My only problem with the rules in this instance is that they still don't really define what being 'in a ruin' means. Technically you have to be "standing on the piece of scenery". How does that work with, for example, a ruin with 1 or more upper levels but no base. Do models on the ground floor only receive a cover save if they are 25% obscured because they are not 'on' the scenery? Yet again, you have to debate these things with your opponent before the game rather than having a clear rule, like area terrain.

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PostSubject: Re: How does Cover Actually Work?   Sat Dec 06 2014, 01:13

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Craters offer a 6+ simply for being in the crater, increasing to 5+ if the model is 25% obscured whilst either in the crater or behind it.
That is not correct - you have a 6+ in a crater - whether you have 25% or not, and you have 5+ if you are behind it with 25% (though none without)

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'm not sure what the argument about ruins is. Both would provide 4+ if you're in the ruin and 5+ if you're simply obscured by, but not in, the ruin.
Both what? I feel you didn't finish writing out what you were thinking. I am going to go with 'walls' as that was what I was discussing about with ruins - and the walls always provide a 4+ if you are obscured. As 'walls' count for ruined building walls - what I'm discussing is that any 'wall' on a ruin is a 'wall' and ruins are just everything within the wall - that works with the rules even as you state them and also does what I say and only requires classifying the walls of a ruin as wall terrain attached to ruin terrain, right? That's ruins with a 4+ for being behind them right there.

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PostSubject: Re: How does Cover Actually Work?   Mon Dec 08 2014, 10:08

@Thor665 wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Craters offer a 6+ simply for being in the crater, increasing to 5+ if the model is 25% obscured whilst either in the crater or behind it.
That is not correct - you have a 6+ in a crater - whether you have 25% or not, and you have 5+ if you are behind it with 25% (though none without)

Sorry, not had time over the weekend to get back to this. Yes, you're quite right. I'd been reading it as "6+ even if you're not obscured' rather than "6+ regardless of whether you are obscured or not".

Quote :
@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'm not sure what the argument about ruins is. Both would provide 4+ if you're in the ruin and 5+ if you're simply obscured by, but not in, the ruin.
Both what? I feel you didn't finish writing out what you were thinking. I am going to go with 'walls' as that was what I was discussing about with ruins - and the walls always provide a 4+ if you are obscured. As 'walls' count for ruined building walls - what I'm discussing is that any 'wall' on a ruin is a 'wall' and ruins are just everything within the wall - that works with the rules even as you state them and also does what I say and only requires classifying the walls of a ruin as wall terrain attached to ruin terrain, right? That's ruins with a 4+ for being behind them right there.

That makes sense to me but walls are 'Battlefield Debris' whereas Ruins are a distinct terrain type with their own rules so I'm not sure you can just 'mix and match' like that. So again we have the situation where you need to discuss it with your opponent rather than actually having a clear rule.


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PostSubject: Re: How does Cover Actually Work?   Fri Dec 12 2014, 09:01

In that picture where the Fire Dragons are shooting at the Rhino in the vehicle page inthe brb, they state that as the Rhino is obscured by the ruins it receives a 4+

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PostSubject: Re: How does Cover Actually Work?   Fri Dec 12 2014, 09:34

That must be the one of the worst pictures in rule book. Those fire dragons shooting Rhino can see its front when text says it can claim the 3+ cover.

(And that Rhino might touch ruin and thus being in ruins)

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PostSubject: Re: How does Cover Actually Work?   Fri Dec 12 2014, 12:41

@Vasara wrote:
That must be the one of the worst pictures in rule book. Those fire dragons shooting Rhino can see its front when text says it can claim the 3+ cover.

(And that Rhino might touch ruin and thus being in ruins)

Vehicles need to be 25% obscured. They do not benefit from being in a ruin.

In regards to the coversave problematic, as I understand it, every piece of terrain has some kind of coversave. You generally get it if you are >25% obscured by it. Also there is some terrain, that gives you the same coversave just by standing in it - that is of you are not a vehicle.

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PostSubject: Re: How does Cover Actually Work?   Mon Dec 15 2014, 14:21

Here you go, my video which explains it all. The operative part of the wording for ruins is 'Whether OR not'. People tend to read the 'not' but ignore the full meaning of the phrase. If a piece of terrain is described this way, you get the cover save indicated from being 'in' it (within it's confines/footprint) or being obscured by it. Look at 'Rubble' on the battlefield debris page (the black page) and you'll see this is basically the old 'area terrain' in all but name. Anyway, watch the video and it will all become clear.
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PostSubject: Re: How does Cover Actually Work?   Mon Dec 15 2014, 14:49

I'd agree that the section on vehicles does muddy the water somewhat but I'd argue that it is that section of the rules that is incorrect and the section on terrain that is correct. The vehicle section is pretty much word for word the same as both 5th and 6th edition but the terrain rules themselves underwent a significant change, both between 5e and 6e, where cover saves in general were toned down and between 6e and 7e, where terrain and cover was pretty much redefined completely.

At best you're left in a position where there is a rules discrepancy and you need to agree with your opponent (or dice off for it).

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PostSubject: Re: How does Cover Actually Work?   Fri Feb 20 2015, 20:23

There is no discrepency. You're not reading the rules properly, or my previous post.
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PostSubject: Re: How does Cover Actually Work?   Fri Feb 20 2015, 23:28



Quote :
When one of the following rules refer to a model being "in cover behind" a piece of terrain, this means a model is at least 25% obscured by the scenery, and therefore eligible for a cover save (pg 37).
On the other hand, when one of the following rules refers to a model being "in" a piece of terrain, this means that model, or some part of it, is actually standing on the piece of scenery, whether it is obscured from view or not.

Reading it thoroughly, there really isn't much to be in doubt about.

The general rule for cover saves is on page 37. You get a 5+ save if you are 25% covered.

Then comes the exceptions on page 108, starting the page specifically by defining "in cover behind" and "in".

The first part (in cover behind) refers you right back to page 37, therefore being 5+ if 25% obscured.

The entire text for ruins is only two lines: "Ruins are difficult terrain. Models in ruins recieve a 4+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured."

Returning to page 37, it says: "Unless specifically stated otherwise all cover provides a 5+ save."

Returning again to doublecheck the text for ruins, the only exception in these two lines are for models "IN" ruins. Nowhere does it say anything about models "in cover behind", and therefore it cannot qualify for the "unless specifically stated otherwise" mentioned in the previous step.

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
@Vasara wrote:
That must be the one of the worst pictures in rule book. Those fire dragons shooting Rhino can see its front when text says it can claim the 3+ cover.

(And that Rhino might touch ruin and thus being in ruins)

Vehicles need to be 25% obscured. They do not benefit from being in a ruin.

Vehicles DO benefit from being in ruins. They just ALSO have to be 25% covered, as per the vehicle cover rules.


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PostSubject: Re: How does Cover Actually Work?   Sat Feb 21 2015, 00:12

@Timatron wrote:
There is no discrepency. You're not reading the rules properly, or my previous post.

This thread was over 2 months old. Can I remind everyone to please review the forum rules on threadomancy (section 2), especially the bit about constructive input, and on respect to fellow denizens (section 4).

Thank you.
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