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Tattooudrew
Hellion


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PostSubject: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 01:13

i know i will deffinetly be running scourges, 2 units with blasters deep striking on armor. their models are just sick and they do their job well. i don't know why but i just really don't like the ravager (or raider) i don't know why. right now for my kabalite army I'm thinking 2 scourge and possibly a void raven bomber.

I also want to make a coven army list and will be buying lots of talos

but i want to hear what you guys use an how because i don't want to buy models i when others can do a better job (I'm just starting up again )
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jbwms713
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 01:55

I plan to start trying dissie Ravagers as anti-armor... deep striking into the back field to get to the soft spots.

Dissies are better at cracking AV10 than lances, such as it is... so I at least want to give it a go. Obviously lances win out with anything higher (especially 12+ as, you may have noticed, dissies can't touch), but dissies have the added bonus of relatively eating through infantry once the armor is done.

There's the general risk of DS, along with our general lack of methods to solidify reserves, but... shrug. I think it'll be fun to try out, at least. I've been working on fleshing out a new concept, and this is a big part of it, so... we'll see how it goes.

All that said, Blasterborn, Scourges, even Reavers to an extent and then blasters in squads are all still viable options, I would think.
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Tattooudrew
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 02:06

i have included an autarch for any list where i deep strike without wwp's for that +1/-1 to all reserve rolls
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Tattooudrew
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 02:18

that or maybe some venoms with trueborns w/ blasters
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Coreytt@BWG
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 04:08

Have you thought about haywire on the Scourges? better at stripping hull pts. unless you want the versatility/chance of exploding from ap2
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DEfan
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 06:00

I like the 5 warriors w/blaster in a raider with nightshields combo. 6 of these squads for 810 points, pretty annoying to kill and hurts all targets. So far it is shooting the poop out of everything. Then Lilith, 6 grots and a WWP Haemy deep strke somewhere sensitive. 4x3 man squads of reavers with cluster caltrops come blazing in from reserve. It all comes in at around 1500.

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Tattooudrew
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 06:52

@Coreytt@BWG wrote:
Have you thought about haywire on the Scourges? better at stripping hull pts. unless you want the versatility/chance of exploding from ap2

thats pretty much only way i would run them is with the haywire blasters
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fredpower
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 07:04

for your conven list you can use the raider anti tank an HWB on talos but that it you can do with conven to anti tank with shooting on mele you will use grotesques to wreck thinks that have at maximun av 11 on the back and talos for bigger thing like land raider with smash but will thiss the lances and HWB are better doing
sry for my english
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fredpower
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 07:06

jbwms713 i like your way of thinking i will try the ravager ds with dissintegrators
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Tattooudrew
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 07:52

idk but i almost never field elites so i feel the 4 blaster true born and if you can spend the points an ace with blast pistol in a venom deep striking could be pretty nasty, 5 haywire shots aint no joke thats basically a scourge unit without wasting fast attack choice. of course I'm talking from just theories i haven't actually played DE on the table just watched lots of battle reports and tactics videos on youtube an reading on this forum
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Tattooudrew
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 08:04

and you get to field another venom. idk if its the x space marine player in me that likes small tactical units but i don't like that i can lose 10 guys in a raider like its nothn... and it only gves you a lance that you can't jink.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 09:08

Don't get the blaster and haywire blaster confused. Trueborn can take blasters but not haywire blasters, scourges can take either.

I don't put all my eggs in any one basket. Bring a combination of lances, blasters, haywire blasters and heat lances and apply to the most appropriate target in each situation, bearing in mind that the dice can let you down on any or all of these (I used four heat lances within melta range last week and failed to cause a single penetrating hit).

I'm really not sure about the practicality of using deep striking ravagers with dissies as anti tank - against the people I play any tank that's vulnerable to S5 guns is well protected with little option for deep striking in a position to take advantage. I'd also dispute the maths you're using to suggest that dissies are better at cracking AV10 than lances - one dissie has a 1 in 3 chance of beating AV10 (accounting for the fact that it shoots three times) whilst a single lance has a 4 in 9 chance of doing the same.

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 10:31

It's 327 points to get a WWP Archon with a blaster and 4 blaster Trueborn in a Venom. Comparing to 3 units (nearly) of Haywire scourges, that's 12 Haywire shots, I know which I prefer. Ignoring the obvious cost differences, the biggest problem with the Blasterborn, and always has been, is if the Venom gets shot by anything stronger than str4, it's likely to explode and this, in turn, is likely to kill either all or the majority of the infantry inside. Extremely expensive 1 shot, suicide unit in my opinion.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 10:48

@Hellstrom wrote:
Ignoring the obvious cost differences, the biggest problem with the Blasterborn, and always has been, is if the Venom gets shot by anything stronger than str4, it's likely to explode

Strength has little (directly) to do with the chance to explode. You're simply more likely to get a penetrating hit. Explosions are, thankfully, much rarer these days due to the change to the vehicle damage chart.

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Cavalier
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 11:53

I know its been pretty universally panned but I am dedicated to learning how to use the Void Raven. The bad-bird needs an escort (mine is the nasty little Nightwing: 2+ Jink double b.lances, double shuriken cannons). But by doubling down on flyers the high strength lances should be able to clear the skies, and if you can take out AA on the ground you can really overwhelm your opponent. Despite the difficulty of play I think the Void Raven is worth learning how to use simply because it brings high-strength fire power unlike anything else in the book. Its essentially a flying Wraithknight in terms of firepower... with a little more via the bomb.

But I play with allies almost exclusively and my list also includes 3 Pulse Laser Hornets and a Wraithknight... so the Void Raven is essentially the cherry on top. Razz

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 13:15

Scourges first of all, 2 squads with 4 Haywire. I don't play Scourges always on Deep Strike, sometimes I need this guy on the table at first turn.
Then, I add always some CC in my list (Grotesques, Sslyth, Beastmasters, CaltropsReavers ecc).
Then, Haywire greneades wher I can put it (HQ, Sibarite, Dracon, Hekatrix ecc)
Last of all, some blasters.

In VII Ed I really don't love Blasters, making explode veichles on 6+, if I wanna take less some HP i prefer Haywire. Yes, it's ok to shank/stun some veichles, but to me that will be some "plus", not the first objective to do with enemy tank. I need to crush them, and If i can choose between crush theme and silence them, I prefer the first way.
AND, with 6+, you will silence any tank with Haywire Blasters/Greneades.

I use Blasters only to "close the circle". An Haywire Scourges squad sometimes don't crush the tank, leaving it with 1 HP. Then, I use Blasters (or single HW greneade) to finish it.

And about transport, I prefer go in CC when I can surrounded it and so destroy the squad inside wrecking the tank Smile Otherwise, HW mass+Blaster finisher

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mrmagoo
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 14:42

I have actually tried all options and my Favorite is actually Heat Lances. Deep strike them with 9 and watch tanks go boom.

While haywire is good. It just doesn't seem as effective as lances.

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 14:50

Unless you scatter, which is 66% likely ..... then you do nothing at all and then die the next turn. I don't understand how anyone ever get heat lances to work.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 15:04

@Hellstrom wrote:
Unless you scatter, which is 66% likely ..... then you do nothing at all and then die the next turn.  I don't understand how anyone ever get heat lances to work.

Archon. Shadowfield. Blaster.

Your deep strike doesn't scatter, your heat lances are in half range, you can add in a BS7 blaster shot and your scourges are pretty safe from return fire with the Archon's 2++, just make sure you place them right.

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thesaltedwound
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 15:39

I take 4 haywire scourges, and give a blaster to at least one Reaver, depending on the size of the game. Basically the same thing Cerve was saying.

mrmagoo do I understand you right? NINE heat lances?? Because 1 - that's extreme overkill and 2 - where are you even getting those Shocked

I think HL scourges are a suicide squad even with a shadowfield archon. Your opponent has screwed up pretty badly if you're within 9" of a tank and he doesn't have more than one angle to hit you back from.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 15:44

@thesaltedwound wrote:
mrmagoo do I understand you right? NINE heat lances??

I think he meant to say "deep strike them within 9 inches"

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thesaltedwound
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 15:54

Well I feel silly, if relieved.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 16:07

@thesaltedwound wrote:
Your opponent has screwed up pretty badly if you're within 9" of a tank and he doesn't have more than one angle to hit you back from.

Oh I dunno, the front? Or between it and the table edge? It's also not just about where they can hit you from, but also what damage that's going to do. For example if it's 10 bolters that can hit you once each, you might lose your 1 guy without a heat lance (you have FNP by this point, especially if you include a haemie in the unit) And quite frankly, if they want to focus fire on a unit that's already done its job, then let them!

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mrmagoo
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 17:28

@thesaltedwound wrote:
I take 4 haywire scourges, and give a blaster to at least one Reaver, depending on the size of the game. Basically the same thing Cerve was saying.

mrmagoo do I understand you right? NINE heat lances?? Because 1 - that's extreme overkill and 2 - where are you even getting those Shocked

I think HL scourges are a suicide squad even with a shadowfield archon. Your opponent has screwed up pretty badly if you're within 9" of a tank and he doesn't have more than one angle to hit you back from.

Sorry typo,  It was meant to say within 9".  

Yes you have to deploy with a character with WWP, and you do have to watch where you deploy them.    You don't land them next to something that you are going to get shot to death.   You place where you have LOS and the rest of their army doesn't.  

I had a squad of Heatlances use a Guardsman Fortification to limit the number of shots and in by the end of the game the 5 Man squad of Heatlances had 2 Leman russes and a Chimera on their kill board.

You have to put them in such a place that they don't get shot to heck.  Yes I have had them come in and do nothing.  But same has happened with Haywaire Blasters.

Its all about placement and using the rest of your army to separate them.  Heat Lances are good a picking off the Medusa sitting in the back, or the loan Land Raider that is on your front line.

Another reason I like Lances over Haywire is they actually have an option if you run into an army with no tanks. This squad hitting the Dev squad of 4 Lascannons will be a few dead Marines.
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thesaltedwound
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PostSubject: Re: what are your anti tank methods   Tue Dec 02 2014, 17:36

Placement is totally key, you're right. I always just found it easier to do with HWB. What kind of board size do you tend to play on? Nearly all my games are on a 4'x4' board, do you think you'd do it differently if your opponents were likely to be less spread out? Or does the heat lances extra killiness in a small area offset the smaller survivability?

I'm interested in using them for sure, hence the 20 questions, I've just never really thought I'd be capable Razz

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