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Dragontree
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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Mon 1 Dec 2014 - 17:42

I think the problem with superheavy is equating super heavy to huge.

We could have a relatively lightly armoured vehicle that is fast and lithe but just has particular powerful weapons on it.

And equally these weapons don't have to be gigantic bombs they could be acid rain creators, poison gas cloud formers, mini black hole creators etc etc

I think GW just cannot be bothered to put that level of creativity into a dark eldar machination because we are the bastard child of 40k

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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Tue 2 Dec 2014 - 5:38

@Plastikente wrote:
I take your point on all that.  I was really disappointed with the lack of new stuff too.  But I don't think that superheavies are the answer.  Once they're in the book, a lot of people will use them (unless they manage to make them rubbish, like the Voidraven).  And I think that if superheavies become the go-to unit for DE that will change the feel of the army for the worse.

On the other hand not having the option makes the feel of the army for the worse. Lords of War and Super Heavies are a thing. If my only way to compete with other armies is to ally in with Craftworld Eldar, that's an admission that the Craftworld Eldar, and every other race in the Galaxy is superior to our own. And to me that's the most unfluffy fluff piece there is. Yeah we can "pretend" like we're using them, but we actually need them. How can an Archon sleep at night? Actually even without his Craftowlrd brother being better, how can an Archon sleep at night, you know, with all the betrayal and murder?

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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Tue 2 Dec 2014 - 10:39

@Plastikente wrote:
I'm sort of on both sides of the fence.

Autsch! That leaves you sitting on a fence...

Anyway, I think that there are bigger ships then the Tantalus in a dark Eldar fleet, I just think that the therm Super Heavy is a bit misleading as it still would be a glass cannon, but what a cannon ;-)
I think a gunboat with the option for a portable WWP would be fitting. Or a gladiatorial ramming boat full of wyches that can charge from that boat.
For the gunboat FW had a concept drawing, that looked fantastic. About 2.5 times the size of a raider with 3 guns at each side.

Remember, super heavies are big, but do not have to be super tuff.

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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Tue 2 Dec 2014 - 10:40

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
@Plastikente wrote:
I'm sort of on both sides of the fence.

Remember, super heavies are big, but do not have to be super tuff.

Exactly my feelings!

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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Tue 2 Dec 2014 - 17:25

My attitude towards super-heavies still has to be; Why would an archon have use for it? Super-heavies are, by their name, super heavy. In terms of table-top it would completely go against the play style we have, numerous small squads that pick apart our opponents larger or heavier forces.

@Dragontree wrote:
We could have a relatively lightly armoured vehicle that is fast and lithe but just has particular powerful weapons on it.
What you have described there my friend is not a super heavy, it's a heavy support. For it to be a S-H it has to be expensive and big: neither of these are thing which fit our army. Super-heavies are designed by their nature to be able to withstand a huge amount of firepower and continue fighting and thus have an insane number of hull-points to allow for this. This is not dark eldar.

@Count Adhemar wrote:
When Escalation came out, despite being completely opposed to the whole concept, I objected to the fact that we were just told to use the Revenant.
I can't understand why you would be wanting a super-heavy then? It doesn't fit our fluff or play style. I'm sad to see that the current attitude seems to be 'Well everyone else has this so why not us?' this kind of feeling is what leads to homogenisation and the removal of the unique feelings of armies.

Obviously it varies from person to person what they believe an army should look like and feel as and personally the idea of a dark eldar force with a massive vehicle or creature at its centre on the table appalls me. I'm still of the belief that super heavies should be banished back to apoc a not allowed back into a predominately skirmish game.
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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Tue 2 Dec 2014 - 17:32

@Vindicavi wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
When Escalation came out, despite being completely opposed to the whole concept, I objected to the fact that we were just told to use the Revenant.
I can't understand why you would be wanting a super-heavy then? It doesn't fit our fluff or play style. I'm sad to see that the current attitude seems to be 'Well everyone else has this so why not us?' this kind of feeling is what leads to homogenisation and the removal of the unique feelings of armies.

Obviously it varies from person to person what they believe an army should look like and feel as and personally the idea of a dark eldar force with a massive vehicle or creature at its centre on the table appalls me. I'm still of the belief that super heavies should be banished back to apoc a not allowed back into a predominately skirmish game.

My objections to Escalation seem to be broadly the same as yours, ie that superheavies have no place in 'normal' 40k and that anyone wanting to play with them already had the Apocalypse ruleset to use. GW effectively forced them into 40k in order to bolster their ever-flagging sales figures.

Given however that they are now here and a part of the game then I would quite like to at least have the option to play the same game as most (all?) other codexes. Telling us that we aren't allowed to have one of our own but if we ask nicely we can borrow one from the Craftworlds really feels like a slap in the face. The continued absence of anything Dark Eldar from anything that isn't our codex (and supplement) reinforces that feeling.

Oh, and from the look of the symbols on the GW advent calendar, it doesn't look like Santa Claus will be calling at Commorragh this year either.

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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Tue 2 Dec 2014 - 17:42

@Vindicavi - I think the point that is being made is that 'super-heavy' is a misnomer, and that the idea that in all of Commorragh the biggest vehicle in existince is a Tantalus is a bit ridiculous.

I recall that in one of the Ultramarine novels, and also in BFG, the Dark Eldar had spaceships, so they don't just travel by webway and portals.

To my mind, just because a vehicle is big doesn't mean it's slow, it means it needs greater propulsion to move its mass at the required speed. I'd see Dark Eldar 'super heavies' as being large, but lightweight, with layered shields (such as for example multiple shadowfields providing 'hull points' instead of it being a physically massive vehicle) and devastating weapons arrays.

As such, the objection is not to the homogenisation of armies through universal super heavy access, but more specifically the lack of an answer as to how DE deal would with such things, given that the tools accessed via the existing codex are very limited. It couldn't realistically be a traditional 'super-heavy' but there's no reason they couldn't come up with a solution in that price bracket.

@Count - are you surprised? We're probably on his 'naughty' list in indelible pen...

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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Tue 2 Dec 2014 - 17:44

I must say I appreciate the feeling of dark eldar (and SoB) being the bastard children games-workshop don't like to talk about. But I cant bring myself to let them crowbar some kind of massive tank into our army, it just doesn't sit right with me. An idea that I could perhaps face would be some kind of immovable web way portal, that we could place at the start of the game (as though it was there all along...) to allow for bringing in reserves and maybe provide some buffs i.e. stealth and shrouded within a certain area.
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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Tue 2 Dec 2014 - 17:47

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Count - are you surprised? We're probably on his 'naughty' list in indelible pen...

He's delivering to the Tyranids so I think we should at least get a £5 record token.

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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Tue 2 Dec 2014 - 17:47

big flyer, that actually brings 4 missiler per turn, a dorsal turret lance array for anti air fire and gatling disintegrators for engaging ground targets...

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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Tue 2 Dec 2014 - 17:51

@ Vindicavi - I think burning eye worded my point better than myself. I don't think super-heavy = massive tank. Though I totally appreciate that view point and am not saying your wrong, its just a point of view Smile

And the whole point on maintaining dark eldar fluff would be that we don't require a physically massive tank to match up to others.

I'm not asking for what other armies have I want something uniquely dark eldar which expands upon our methods of warfare previously unexplored. I.e. not a big fat tank with a big fat gun. I just think GW can't be bothered to try so hard for us!

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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Tue 2 Dec 2014 - 19:50

You know, while everyone keeps moaning about super heavies and speed I'm not sure why no one has brought up a Revenant Titan can move like 30" in a turn. Let's not forget the Eldar Vampire Hunter/Raiders either, that are super heavies that can move up to 30" a turn, probably more if they turbo boosted. Harridans can, what, move 24"? Tau Tiger Sharks? I know everyone thinks imperial knights and Baneblades when they hear super heavy, but there are plenty of examples of fast units in the slot.

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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Tue 2 Dec 2014 - 21:19

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Vindicavi [...] the objection is not to the homogenisation of armies through universal super heavy access, but more specifically the lack of an answer as to how DE deal would with such things, given that the tools accessed via the existing codex are very limited.

This is exactly the issue. Also, it's insulting that our toys have better synergy with CWE toys than with our other toys...
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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Wed 3 Dec 2014 - 0:01

The thing we must never forget is the fact that We are the great unplanned army. We just turned up one day in Nottingham in all our spikey glory and said "Remember all that fluff about Eldar Pirates? Here we are! We converted these eldar into Evil Space Elves!"

So you see we are unique.
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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Wed 3 Dec 2014 - 0:07

Well it probably went more like this: "Gentlemen, we need sales". So the board of directors started shouting all kinds of ideas, such as balanced codices, clearly written and regularly updated rules, yet none struck the great Kirby as interesting, until one man exclaimed: "Remember all that fluff about eldar pirates? Lets do that and make them really spikey; convert these Eldar into evil space elves"

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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Wed 3 Dec 2014 - 0:22

No, I think it was folk started converting their own armies...Like Im doing with my Exodites
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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Wed 3 Dec 2014 - 21:12

This is what I would like to see as a Dark Eldar super heavy.

If Vect can have a flying Siggurat then I want a Battlebarge! ;-)

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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Wed 3 Dec 2014 - 22:22

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
This is what I would like to see as a Dark Eldar super heavy.

If Vect can have a flying Siggurat then I want a Battlebarge! ;-)


YES. Lovely looking pictures, a deft hand my friend.

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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Wed 3 Dec 2014 - 22:59

Dayum those are some nice drawings! I've always wondered why DE don't yet have one of these things (Even jabba has one, after all!)


EDIT:
And don't forget to add some of these

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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Thu 4 Dec 2014 - 16:04

@Crazy Irish, 2 requests, 1) please make one of those your avatar, I would like to be looking at them often, and 2) if you could have a mock-up modeled and in the mail soon, I'll need to start playtesting right away...

I think an assault vehicle transport option for the Coven, and particularly Talos/Cronos, is in order. That skinny one could carry 2 separate units of Taloi, grots, or wracks, one on either side, or maybe even a Dark Artisan formation! No ranged weapons, but give it stock Lightning Prow, Chain Snares, and a Flickerfield, and call it a day!
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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Thu 4 Dec 2014 - 18:10

I don't think Crazy Irish made them. I believe they were some concept sketches made a while ago for FW

Edit: But, if I'm wrong, then you should give them to FW Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Thu 4 Dec 2014 - 18:48

@Cavash wrote:
I don't think Crazy Irish made them.

Hell no! I draw like a kid on sweets ;-) and you are right, the are from FW but are not planned... :-\

@honethedroll: if you pay for the printing cost, I'll design it for you in a CAD program. Also I agree with you a bigger transport that can deliver it's cargo into CC would be sweet!

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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Thu 4 Dec 2014 - 19:33

Ah, well, who can fault me for having faith in the artistic talents of the denizens of our wicked metropolis?

@Crazy_Irish: You didn't fall for my devious plot?! Unfortunately I'll be needing to acquire some coven units before I go figuring out how to transport them...
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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 23:02

@Anterzhul wrote:
Dayum those are some nice drawings! I've always wondered why DE don't yet have one of these things (Even jabba has one, after all!)

That's exactly what I think when I hear "Dark Eldar super heavy". Laughing

Fluff- and gameplay-wise, I think a super heavy transporter would make the most sense. Raiders and Venoms are great to get into combat quickly, but they probably aren't very efficient when it comes to carrying the loot home. scratch

I'd imagin it somewhere along this line:
* AV 13 13 10
* 4 or 5 hull points
* transport capacity 20
* Enclosed Cabin option; comes with 5 firing ports on each side
* hull-mounted Disintegrator Cannon or Dark Lance
* Optional turret-mounted Dark Scythe or Void Lance on top

It would be closer to a floating Battlewaggon or Land Raider with more seats than to a Baneblade, but I don't think it really needed to be more.
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PostSubject: Re: Superheavies and us   Fri 9 Jan 2015 - 15:16

Throwing my voice into this discussion. The game has certainly escalated over the years - super heavies have now become normalized (as have fliers) and the points cost of units has slowly fallen so that more is on the table. 40k has suffered a very noticeable power creep over it's lifetime. This isn't necessarily a bad thing though. People enjoy having larger armies and massive tanks on the table. If you don't like it you don't have to play them in your group.

In the current environment I think it's not only fitting for the DE to have some super-heavy(esque) units of their own but I think there are holes in the army that these nits can fill nicely. There's an argument that DA are about lightning quick raids etc etc but a.) where are they keeping all these slaves they're capturing? They're loading the Raiders up with the corpses of their fallen warriors so they're not carrying slaves home to Comorragh and b.) there's only so many small farming communities you can raid before your time-limited raids become counter-productive. DA need slaves and loot and lots of it. You can't find that in some backwater farmstead on the edge of nowheresville. You're going to have to raid cities and high density population area's at which point you're going to need something with a little more kick to crack those tougher, but more satisfying nuts. Even a small-time Archon has to provide for the basic (very basic most likely) living needs of his Kabal's warriors. Wages have o be paid, rations given out, weapons and armour manufactured etc. Where's all that money coming from? Certainly not a bunch of Tau ranchers on a barely populated moon!

There are distinct holes in the Dark Eldar list that could do with being addressed by super-heavies. These are mass transporting of infantry (funny how an army relying on swiftly dropping trained warriors into the thick of battle are out-transported by space marines who aren't known universally for getting into the thick of it), dealing with very heavy armoured units and fortification quickly (best loot is behind thick walls usually) and dealing with sub-titan walker units. These holes could be filled by the following vehicle concepts:

The Battlebarge. That second FW sketch fits perfectly this concept perfectly (FW likely were thinking similar when they drew it). A super-heavy transport vehicle (fast skimmer). Armour 12/12/10 with 5 HP's. Transport capacity 20 (the Tantalus I guess is ok at capacity 16 but the DE really need a 20 capacity vehicle) and may carry up to 2 separate units (each of which can fire at seperate targets). It's armed with 2 pulse-disintegrators and 2 dark scythes (possibly twin-linked balance permitting) and has the same scythvanes carried by the Tantalus. It has flickerfields and nightshields for defence plsu whatever other kind of shielding would be necessary to justify it being super-heavy. It would come with the ability to deep strike without scatter and move at combat speed the turn it arrives (from the Scythevane Slaughter Host special rule) and/or the deep strike turn 1 ability (ala the Scalpel Squadron). Depending on balance it can also act a sort of homing beacon for deepstrike reducing scatter to 1d6 if you attempt to land within 6" of the vehicle. It would allow you to feasibly take larger warrior squads and have a solid way of getting them into combat if you wanted to field a more bodies in your army.

The Battlebarge is a large heavy vehicle (maybe not a true super-heavy but it doesn't need to be), heavier and larger than anything else the DE would field but it's essentially a flagship for the raiding fleet that can act as a webway beacon to bring reinforcements to battle should you need them. In terms of fluff this is where those pirates are sticking their captured slaves and their booty, also using it as a stable industrial scale webway portal through which the kabal's cargo skiffs can deploy.

The Psuedo-Flyer. The Eldar Lynx is the perfect template for a DE super-heavy destroyer. It's not s tough as most super-heavies but it still sports a pulsar weapon which is a nice tank destroyer weapon. It uses it's speed and it's ability to take off and fly for a turn to position itself to take the perfect shot. It's gonna get shot up if you expose it to concentrated fire so keep it moving and out of trouble. It might only get to fire 2-3 times a game with it zooming around but that's fine, this suit DE combat doctrine. Of course it'd have to look different (a cross between a Void Raven and a Vampire SH flier maybe)!

The Abomination. A giant coven creation that is a giant lumbering grotesque-talos hybrid made by fusing the flesh and psyches of multiple individuals. This would be employed against heavy walkers (anything smaller than an Imperial Knight) where lances would be needed to take care of armour instead. It's have no real ranged capability would be a monster in close combat due to its toughness. A (formation based) pack of them might be used to bring down an Imperial Knight sized enemy in a larger raid. They need to be very tough (can have toughness 10 on a creature?), have a 4+ invul and 4+ FnP and the Eternal Warrior and It Will Not Die rules. It wins in combat through attrition rather than damage output so against squads of troops it'd probably get bogged down but against a large foe it'd tear through them in 2-4 rounds of combat. It would also have some rules for besieging buildings so it can wreck fortifications and the like whilst it soaks up fire from the defenders.

I think all three of those would be valuable additions to the DE line up and there are good lore and doctrinal reasons to include any of them in a DE list. Given FW' and GW's semi-abandonment of DE support though it's doubtful the army will ever get anything like these. Best you could do would be to scratch build your own super-heavies and try to develop reasonable rules for them that your friends or club mates will let you use. It'd be easy to do that if you just base them on units and rules that already exist.

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