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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Wed Dec 17 2014, 16:03

Simple interpretation and understanding of the English Language here, I make no claims that any of this is defined anywhere in a GW publication (well, obviously, understanding of the English Language isn't their strong suit after all).

Q. When you deploy a model onto the table via deep strike (as it tells you to), what does that represent?
A. The model moving from a location that isn't represented on the table (so could be 12' above it for example) to one that is. The only time this doesn't involve movement is when DS is performed via teleport - even a WWP requires you to move through the portal.

Q. What does 'in the movement phase during which they arrive, deep striking units may not move any further' actually mean, grammatically speaking?
A. Quite simply, by stating that the units can't move any further, it is implicit that it has already moved (even if that movement was considered and called deployment).

Q. What is deployment if it is not movement?
A. You've got me stumped. I would say it's essentially moving a unit from a position off the board to one on it, that's unrestricted by the normal limitations of distance etc, to represent a moment in time. So deployment at the start of the game can see a heavy vehicle up to 24" onto the board, despite the fact that in game terms it would take 4 turns to get there. Now it's possible it was dropped into that position by a flying transport but the odds are that it drove there and the beginning of the battle simlpy represents that moment in time I mentioned. Similarly, I don't consider that on the turn it arrives onto the board, a deep striking raider etc has magically appeared from some point miles away (unless it's using a WWP in which case this discussion is irrelevant anyway) - it's been moving from wherever it began to get to the point on the board that it arrives, and when it does finally get there GW have helpfully told us how quickly it has been moving in the meantime. I can't comprehend therefore how anyone could argue that a unit deploying via deep strike isn't also moving (teleport exception granted) as it's totally counter-intuitive to anything the game represents. I'd argue that the fact that the unit started the turn off the board and ended on the board means it absolutely must have moved, regardless of whether that move is laterally across the board or vertically from some point above it.

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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Wed Dec 17 2014, 20:47

@1++ wrote:
You've jumped ahead in your interpretation. You've overlooked a very important component of the Deep Strike rule. The rule tells you specifically what to do:

"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table....."


The rules for Reserves is only used when determining if a unit can enter the game or not at the start of said turn. That's where Reserves rule ends. As Massaen has stated several times now, you DEPLOY via Deep Strike

By your interpretation the sentence "Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move." must be ignored by Deep Striking units.

Can Deep Striking units be placed after rolling and after moving regular units? I feel confident that everyone will say no. Why? Because Deep Striking units are a special kind of Reserve unit and still need to follow the Reserves rules (specifically the quoted sentence), except for the parts specifically overridden by the Deep Strike rule.

Reserves defines deploying as moving. Also, all arriving Reserves must move before other units may be moved. Deep Strike units are deployed differently that regular Reserves, but are still Reserves and therefore must be moved before other units can move.
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Thu Dec 18 2014, 11:31

ok, I would postulate you still mishap regardless

you are moved so no models are under the hull - not so that you end more than 1" away from them... thus you still mishap

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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Thu Dec 18 2014, 11:43

@Massaen wrote:
ok, I would postulate you still mishap regardless

you are moved so no models are under the hull - not so that you end more than 1" away from them... thus you still mishap

This seems to be a common misconception about measuring distances.

You measure distances from infantry bases and vehicle hulls. Last time I checked (and I have) the hull of a raider/venom when built using the parts in the box is more than 1" from an infantry base, and therefore does not leave you within 1", so does not result in a mishap.

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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Thu Dec 18 2014, 16:00

@massaen : I was also originally concerned about that as well, however the rule for reducing Drop Pod scatter is worded "minimum distance to clear the obstacle" (not word for word, I don't have a codex on me), which also leave them within 1". However everyone 'understands' that the rule means to reduce the distance out to 1" from models.

So, the only reasonable way to handle this situation is either for both drop pods and skimmers to still be within 1" and mishap OR for both move beyond that 1". I can see no justification to do them differently (other than Burning Eye's point, it actually might be that Skimmers are good and Drop pods mishap Razz I doubt anyone will be able to convince their local groups of that though.).

@The_Burning_Eye : I just reread the rules for measuring and I think you're right. I've always though of measuring as a parallel to the table thing only, but the rules clearly say "to and from" the hull of a vehicle and the closest point on a base.

I still need to set up a skimmer and a troop to actually measure the distance to verify it is indeed at least 1".
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Thu Dec 18 2014, 19:10

@CarnalVirtue wrote:
@massaen : I was also originally concerned about that as well, however the rule for reducing Drop Pod scatter is worded "minimum distance to clear the obstacle" (not word for word, I don't have a codex on me), which also leave them within 1".  However everyone 'understands' that the rule means to reduce the distance out to 1" from models.  

So, the only reasonable way to handle this situation is either for both drop pods and skimmers to still be within 1" and mishap OR for both move beyond that 1".  I can see no justification to do them differently (other than Burning Eye's point, it actually might be that Skimmers are good and Drop pods mishap Razz I doubt anyone will be able to convince their local groups of that though.).

@The_Burning_Eye : I just reread the rules for measuring and I think you're right.  I've always though of measuring as a parallel to the table thing only, but the rules clearly say "to and from" the hull of a vehicle and the closest point on a base.

I still need to set up a skimmer and a troop to actually measure the distance to verify it is indeed at least 1".  

It depends on the pole you used. There are several lenghts. ETC says minimum of 35mm but that is not accepted everywhere.

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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Fri Dec 19 2014, 00:59

drop pods need to be more than 1" away to clear the obstacle. Skimmers say to not have models under the hull. I could easily see this move ending you within 1" of a model

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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Fri Dec 19 2014, 01:24

Got the quote : "Inertial Guidance System: Should a Drop Pod scatter on top of impassable terrain or another model (friend or foe!) then reduce the scatter distance by the minimum required in order to avoid the obstacle"

The obstacle would be either the impassable terrain or other models. It doesn't say 'another model, plus 1"' or "the minimum distance to prevent a Deep Strike Mishap". RAW a drop pod does mishap if it scatters over enemy models.

You're correct that skimmers can't have models under the hull. The rule for moving a skimmer if it ends over other models : "If a skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it." No models would be under the hull and the placement would be legal.

I have also measured both the short and tall stick for the skimmer stand with a venom on top. Both are over 1" from a base placed directly below the hull.
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Fri Dec 19 2014, 06:30

Quote :
The obstacle would be either the impassable terrain or other models. It doesn't say 'another model, plus 1"' or "the minimum distance to prevent a Deep Strike Mishap". RAW a drop pod does mishap if it scatters over enemy models.
But that is the ENTIRE point of the rule! What would be the point of including the part about moving minimum distance to avoid the model, if nomatter which direction you move to avoid it, you will misshap anyway? If you were right, that part is completely irrelevant.
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Fri Dec 19 2014, 09:25

@Sigmaril wrote:
Quote :
The obstacle would be either the impassable terrain or other models. It doesn't say 'another model, plus 1"' or "the minimum distance to prevent a Deep Strike Mishap". RAW a drop pod does mishap if it scatters over enemy models.
But that is the ENTIRE point of the rule! What would be the point of including the part about moving minimum distance to avoid the model, if nomatter which direction you move to avoid it, you will misshap anyway? If you were right, that part is completely irrelevant.

In which case the same applies to the skimmer rule - it's entirely irrelevant if after moving it you still mishap - and there are no other ways of forcing movement to end over models other than DS scatter.

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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Fri Dec 19 2014, 11:08

Not at all - to avoid the obstacle you have to have avoided the mishap - otherwise you have encountered an obstacle to deployment.

As for under the hull - the base it not relevant - the model is within 1" so it would mishap.

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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Fri Dec 19 2014, 11:37

@Massaen wrote:
Not at all - to avoid the obstacle you have to have avoided the mishap - otherwise you have encountered an obstacle to deployment.

As for under the hull - the base it not relevant - the model is within 1" so it would mishap.

Without a definition to the term 'obstacle' the rule is unclear and imprecise. I agree though that the common sense interpretation is that you move the pod far enough to avoid a mishap. It is, however, an interpretation.

Re 'under the hull'
The base is the only relevant part, because that's where the rule book tells you to measure distance from. The model on it is used for line of sight purposes, not measuring distance.

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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Fri Dec 19 2014, 18:16

You're correct that the skimmer base is not relevant, the hull is. Unless you have a skimmer tilted, the hull is always over 1" away from a model base. You measure from the base of a model to the suspended hull of the skimmer.

The rule doesn't say "obstacle to deployment", it just says obstacle. I try to interpret rules as literally as possible. What is an obstacle? Terrain (depending), other models (a tank, some troops). Is this void of space an obstacle? No.

Also, something interesting I realized last night, a skimmer would still mishap if it is still within 1" of an enemy vehicle, or possibly if a close model was on a piece of terrain that raised its base.
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Wed Nov 11 2015, 14:20

But! would the skimmer mishap if it scatters on top of impassable terrain? if you actually can place the model over it and pass the dangerous terrain test then I cant see wh not. Thus making skimmers even better at DS than Drop pods!
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