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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Sat Nov 22 2014, 19:24

Question about skimmer deep striking and landing on top of friendly/enemy units.

Not sure if I shold put this in Q&A or general discussion?

I saw this on front line gaming and am curious as to what others think?

Under the rules for skimmers on pg.89 last paragraph under 'moving skimmers' it says
"if a skimmer is forced to end it's move over friendly or enemy models, move the skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it."

So am I right in thinking that if I deep strike a skimmer and it lands on an enemy or friendly model that the skimmer will not misshap because of the rules for skimmers on pg89. Skimmer can still misshap if scattering off the board etc. Just not over models.

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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Sat Nov 22 2014, 19:28

Been debated heavily, half people seem to think it will cause a mishap, other half don't think so. Last thread got locked, and the question got added to the "things GW needs to FAQ."
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Sat Nov 22 2014, 19:45

What are the arguments for and against this?  

Is deep striking considered a move so that the skimmer does move away from the enemy model? Or is the model simply being placed which does not count as a move? The model is placed before scatter, so it dies move the min distance away Etc...  Yeah an FAQ would be nice

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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Sat Nov 22 2014, 23:36

Can I get the link to th Frontline Gaming article please Colin? I write for that site but I haven't seen the specific article, I don't think.
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Sat Nov 22 2014, 23:48

It was mentioned in one of their recent Signals from front line gaming. Not the newest one, but one or two before that. Maybe ask them to do a full article on it?

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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Sun Nov 23 2014, 01:02

I'll just ask Reece, we're buddies. As I say, I'm practically a staff writer for FLG, that's why I was suprised I didn't notice it.
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Sun Nov 23 2014, 01:59

Counts as moving is not moving is essentially the counter argument. Deep strike is not moving, thus it's not forced to end its move. It's deploying, not moving

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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Tue Nov 25 2014, 13:28

Just a side note: either way if you scatter on top of friendly models its a mishap. Skimmer rule only states enemy models.
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Tue Nov 25 2014, 16:30

It states friendly or enemy models. Above is a direct quote from the rb

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CarnalVirtue
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Tue Nov 25 2014, 18:50

Units also mishap if they land within 1" of an enemy model. The skimmer rule says to move them the minimum distance which would put them within 1", meaning they'd still mishap even if they were allowed to move.

Funny enough, drop pods also only move the minimum distance off models and strictly RAW they mishap as well. Space Marine players really don't like it when you bring this up Very Happy

Personally I think it was intended to be operationally comparable to drop pods. However until we get an FAQ it's something you need to talk with your opponent about before a game.
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Tue Nov 25 2014, 22:07

@CarnalVirtue wrote:
Units also mishap if they land within 1" of an enemy model.  The skimmer rule says to move them the minimum distance which would put them within 1", meaning they'd still mishap even if they were allowed to move.

Funny enough, drop pods also only move the minimum distance off models and strictly RAW they mishap as well.  Space Marine players really don't like it when you bring this up Very Happy

Personally I think it was intended to be operationally comparable to drop pods.  However until we get an FAQ it's something you need to talk with your opponent about before a game.

Strictly speaking you measure from the hull when vehicles are involved, and the skimmer stands make sure the hull is more than 1" away from infantry bases

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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Wed Nov 26 2014, 14:51

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Strictly speaking you measure from the hull when vehicles are involved, and the skimmer stands make sure the hull is more than 1" away from infantry bases

I need to be looking into this I think! pirat
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Wed Nov 26 2014, 18:22

Yes, you ignore the base for all 'in-game' purposes. Other than that funny thing about access points.
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Wed Nov 26 2014, 21:19

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Strictly speaking you measure from the hull when vehicles are involved, and the skimmer stands make sure the hull is more than 1" away from infantry bases

Where does it say you measure from the infantry Base and not the model? That's my buddy's argument against this whole thing working in my favour.

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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Wed Nov 26 2014, 21:21

Very earliest pages of the rulebook where it talks about measuring distances.

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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Wed Nov 26 2014, 22:26

So... Reviewing the iPad version, the first section says models. Not base... Coherency section has base. But not the general movement and separation from enemy models. Am I missing something?
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Wed Nov 26 2014, 23:43

@Myrvn wrote:
So... Reviewing the iPad version, the first section says models. Not base... Coherency section has base. But not the general movement and separation from enemy models. Am I missing something?

Under "MEASURING DISTANCES"

Quote :
Distances between models and all other objects (which can be other models, terrain features and so on) are always measured from the closest point on one base to the closest point on the other base. Distances between units are always measured to and from the bases of the closest models in each of the units (see the diagram below).

From "VEHICLES & MEASURING DISTANCES"

Quote :
As vehicle models do not usually have bases, the normal rule of measuring distances to or from a base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to and from their hull, ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements.

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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Tue Dec 16 2014, 07:48

Quote :
A model cannot move within 1" of an enemy model unless they are charging
I would personally consider this to mean that "minimum distance" moved for the skimmer would be 1" away from said models. Considering the drop pod has the same issue, I'm fairly certain that is the intent.

Regarding the "moved vs deployed"-argument, I noticed this bit in the Deep Strike description:
Quote :
In the Movement Phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further
Does the words "any further" not imply that they have already moved some?
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Tue Dec 16 2014, 11:04

it does except you DEPLOY via deep strike - not move

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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Tue Dec 16 2014, 14:17

Just playing devils advocate here, I don't really have any view on this and I'm not overly sure I want one as my play style probably makes this irrelevant.

However just to pick up on the language point raised by Sigmaril, the use of the language 'any further' does mean the what has occurred up to that point is considered movement.

It is quite probably just poor editing by GW but if the intent were for it to be a deploy and not a move then the language used should simply be:

In the Movement Phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move.

And with that I shall back out...
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CarnalVirtue
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Tue Dec 16 2014, 15:56

The whole "deploy vs move" thing made me wonder how Reserves is worded.

"When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below."

When a unit is arriving from normal reserves it is both being deployed and moving.  *EDIT* Simply being deployed does not mean that a unit has not or can not move. *END EDIT* I don't see why this isn't also be true for a deep striking unit.  As has already been establish the "any further" implies that it must have already moved.  The only logical conclusion is that units arriving by deep strike have indeed moved.
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Wed Dec 17 2014, 02:11

Deep strike is more specific than the general rule Reserves and thus has precedent. You are told to deply and may not move further. While this implies movement, you have not moved so the skimmer rule never takes effect

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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Wed Dec 17 2014, 02:44

I agree and accept that a more specific rule overrides a more general rule, however I think you're disregarding Reserves language that the Deep Strike rule says to follow.  *EDIT* Or in the alternate, must be followed *END*

"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"

So, looking back on the "Arriving from Reserves" section in the Reserves rules, which includes the language on rolling for reserves followed by...

"When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it [...]. Then pick another unit and deploy it, and so on [...] Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move."

This section (which includes the deploy/move language I first quoted) describes the order Reserves come on it. This language is no where in the Deep Strike rule.  This paragraph MUST be referenced in order to know the order in which units are deployed.  It can't be as simple as Deep Strike overrules, unless it included similar or alternative language, which it doesn't.  Also, as the Deep Strike rule specifically references the rolling language which is the rest of the Arriving from Reserves section I believe it means for us to also apply this last paragraph.


Last edited by CarnalVirtue on Wed Dec 17 2014, 19:35; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Wed Dec 17 2014, 11:24

You've jumped ahead in your interpretation. You've overlooked a very important component of the Deep Strike rule. The rule tells you specifically what to do:

"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table....."


The rules for Reserves is only used when determining if a unit can enter the game or not at the start of said turn. That's where Reserves rule ends. As Massaen has stated several times now, you DEPLOY via Deep Strike

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PostSubject: Re: Skimmer not misshaping when DS   Wed Dec 17 2014, 11:49

After thinking about it I think that not scattering onto other models is probably correct. The phrase is,

"If a skimmer is forced to end it's move over friendly or enemy models, move the skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it."

So, if it doesn't apply to when the skimmer Deep Strikes, what does it apply to? When else are you 'forced' to end your move anywhere in particular? Is there any other situation or effect in the game in which a skimmer isn't in control of where and how it moves?

It seems odd that they would put in a rule saying 'If A happens, then do B,' in a game in which 'A' never happens and can't happen, so I'm inclined to think that by 'A' they meant, 'When the skimmer Deep Strikes, for example, but also applying to any other similar mechanics that we may or may not come up with in the future.'

Not because it's clear that this is what it means, but because what else could it mean? Smile
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