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Mononcule
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PostSubject: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Sat Nov 15 2014, 01:00

Hi,

I just played my first 2 games with the new codex + supplement against Necrons. I wanted to try a WWP Dark Artisans formation (warlord haemie) and I learned something basic but very important.

First game (850 pts): WWP Dark Artisan deployed T2 in the middle of the necron boats (1 arks, 2 barges). The DA soaked all the fire, destroyed in assault the 2 barges while losing only a single wound. As this point level they were unstoppable and won me the game easily. They draw all the fire, allowing my paper boat to shoot without any interference.

Second game (1250 pts): WWP DA dropped T2 in one corner of the map to template the Overlord with his crew (2 crypteks, 7 NW). The goal was to flame most of the unit and the damned "reroll cryptek". The 3++ save of the overlord prevented the 3 templates from doing any damage. Next turn, the Overlord unit embarked in the ark, and turboboosted away from the Dark Artisans, leaving them alone and useless in the corner, far from any objective. They then spent the remaining of the game trying to reach anything, being totally ignored by the Necrons. I lost!

In two games the unit lost only 1 wound. Here's what I learned:
1) 1 HL + 3 template drop did nothing at all, both games. I'll try it again on softier targets (lootas in cover! But not again a 3++ T5 model shielding all the unit.
2) WWP is great, but I must resist the temptation to deploy the DA somewhere else than in the middle of the board. They need to control as much objectives as possible. The unit is tough and scary, but really slow and without any long range treat.
3) don't forget Hammer of Wrath
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Plastikente
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Sat Nov 15 2014, 09:34

Good to hear from your experiences. I really like the look of the dark artisan, but haven't had a chance to field it yet in a game.

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ThreefoldSerpent
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Sat Nov 15 2014, 10:49

id say anywhere that it has multiple targets to choose from, even if they all move away, and still be able to get to other stuff after they kill a unit. even better if you have other units that can utilize them -1Ld the DA causes.

dropping it on an isolated unit is a bad idea, especially if the unit moves faster than the DA and can just run away.
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Mononcule
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Sat Nov 15 2014, 12:57

Good point!

The unit is so tough I'm thinking of running them cheaper: without wwp and without extra liquifiers. Deploy them centerfield, and run from turn 1. It will draw all the fire and if you placed a few objectives in the middle they will see action.

With the loss of old night shield, I find that it's harder to avoid medium range fire with our boats. So I want to try a centerfield fire magnet. Every shot on the T7 3+ fnp4+ monsters is not shot at our vehicles.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Tue Nov 18 2014, 14:55

@Mononcule wrote:
Good point!

The unit is so tough I'm thinking of running them cheaper: without wwp and without extra liquifiers. Deploy them centerfield, and run from turn 1. It will draw all the fire and if you placed a few objectives in the middle they will see action.

With the loss of old night shield, I find that it's harder to avoid medium range fire with our boats. So I want to try a centerfield fire magnet. Every shot on the T7 3+ fnp4+ monsters is not shot at our vehicles.
This is the way I play them. I add the Nightmare Doll on the Heamy, in order to give away Kill the Warlord. Also FnP 3+ is cool on a 3 wound meatshield that can regrow wounds from turn 3 up.

I first wanted to add WWP too but than you reach 400 points and over if you want extra Liquifiers (which aren't worth it after double nerf, apparently GW doesn't want MEQ to be beaten by Emo space elfs too easily).
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Tue Nov 18 2014, 16:26

Quote :
This is the way I play them. I add the Nightmare Doll on the Heamy, in order to give away Kill the Warlord. Also FnP 3+ is cool on a 3 wound meatshield that can regrow wounds from turn 3 up.

Most weapons that will aim at your pain engines (majority T7) will ID your Haemi (ID treshold 8 ) so you wont either get benefit from the FnP 3+ (as you have to hide him at the back of the unit) or he gets killed without beeing even allowed his FnP.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Tue Nov 18 2014, 16:29

The nightmare doll ignores the first ID result. And to suggest that the only weapons that shoot at the unit will be S8 or higher is really limited, there are plenty of units that will be shooting at that formation that aren't S8 or more.

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barenone
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Tue Nov 18 2014, 16:43

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
This is the way I play them. I add the Nightmare Doll on the Heamy, in order to give away Kill the Warlord. Also FnP 3+ is cool on a 3 wound meatshield that can regrow wounds from turn 3 up.

Most weapons that will aim at your pain engines (majority T7) will ID your Haemi (ID treshold 8 ) so you wont either get benefit from the FnP 3+ (as you have to hide him at the back of the unit) or he gets killed without beeing even allowed his FnP.


Isnt the haemi considered toughness 7 due to majority unit rule? Also you can just stick the haemi in between the 2 engines and nothing can target him except for precisions because the engines are so large they will always be closer.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Tue Nov 18 2014, 16:45

@barenone wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
This is the way I play them. I add the Nightmare Doll on the Heamy, in order to give away Kill the Warlord. Also FnP 3+ is cool on a 3 wound meatshield that can regrow wounds from turn 3 up.

Most weapons that will aim at your pain engines (majority T7) will ID your Haemi (ID treshold 8 ) so you wont either get benefit from the FnP 3+ (as you have to hide him at the back of the unit) or he gets killed without beeing even allowed his FnP.


Isnt the haemi considered toughness 7 due to majority unit rule? Also you can just stick the haemi in between the 2 engines and nothing can target him except for precisions because the engines are so large they will always be closer.

He is for the purposes of rolling to wound, but not for ID, which is applied on a model by model basis

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barenone
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Tue Nov 18 2014, 16:47

ohhh that i did not know, Thank you.

You still have to kill one of the big guys to even get at the haemi though.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Tue Nov 18 2014, 16:54

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
He is for the purposes of rolling to wound, but not for ID, which is applied on a model by model basis
Do you have a reference page in the BRB?
It seems off to me that majority toughness is applied for wounding but not for ID.
If true is does indeed reduce the effectiveness of the Nightmare Doll a little. But as said before any S8 not shooting our skimmers is already a win in my book.
This would also mean that the Heamy doesn't get to use FnP against S8+ hits, right? Which really hurts.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Tue Nov 18 2014, 16:56

@El_Jairo wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
He is for the purposes of rolling to wound, but not for ID, which is applied on a model by model basis
Do you have a reference page in the BRB?

Quote :
Any Wound allocated to a model has the Instant Death special rule (see below) if the Strength value of that attack is at least double the Toughness value (after modifiers) of that model.

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Tue Nov 18 2014, 16:57

Indeed, and with 4+ FNP re-rolling 1's that's not easy, even for high strength stuff.

As for a page reference, no, I'll have a look later - I was essentially repeating something Count Adhemar said in a thread over the last couple of days.

Ahh, Ninja'd by the Count! Thank you.

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Tue Nov 18 2014, 17:09

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@El_Jairo wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
He is for the purposes of rolling to wound, but not for ID, which is applied on a model by model basis
Do you have a reference page in the BRB?

Quote :
Any Wound allocated to a model has the Instant Death special rule (see below) if the Strength value of that attack is at least double the Toughness value (after modifiers) of that model.

After modifiers? is the group toughness rule a modifier?
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Tue Nov 18 2014, 17:16

OK, I guess this makes more sense as I was wondering when the ID would trigger tND outside of combat.
I guess that won't change my strategy of treating the Heamy as meat shield as he can still pass on those wounds with LoS. You still can ignore the first ID shot that manages to wound you.
I even wouldn't mind him dying first as he feels more like a tax to the DA formation to me anyway. He doesn't really bring anything to the army, apart from boosting FnP on Pain Engines, which boost FnP of nearby units.

Edit: @ Barebone: Majority toughness is a special rule for rolling to wound in shooting vs a unit with mixed T values. So no, this is no modifier.
Unless you get some allies to boost your T with psychic spells, which would be cruel on this unit: imagine T8 and T5 possible on DA. But that would only be a bigger point investment.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Tue Nov 18 2014, 21:59

One trick to remember with the Haemy is aside from soaking anything S7 and lower (and lets face it there are a LOT of guns people can and will point at your DA that are S7 down)...
He can use Look Out Sir to evenly distribute wounds between the Talos and Cronos.
Last game with them they got into CC vs a PF Dreadnought. First round the Dread popped 2 wounds on my Talos while my formation squished marines. 2nd round, Pile In allowed me to get the Haemy into base contact as well as the Talos. The Dread landed 2 more wounds. So what I did was take them on the Haemy, LOS them onto the Cronos, and I still had a fully functional unit instead of losing the Talos or the Cronos.

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Thu Nov 20 2014, 02:47

@Laughingcarp wrote:
One trick to remember with the Haemy is aside from soaking anything S7 and lower (and lets face it there are a LOT of guns people can and will point at your DA that are S7 down)...
He can use Look Out Sir to evenly distribute wounds between the Talos and Cronos.
Last game with them they got into CC vs a PF Dreadnought. First round the Dread popped 2 wounds on my Talos while my formation squished marines. 2nd round, Pile In allowed me to get the Haemy into base contact as well as the Talos. The Dread landed 2 more wounds. So what I did was take them on the Haemy, LOS them onto the Cronos, and I still had a fully functional unit instead of losing the Talos or the Cronos.

I didn't know that, that's good to know!

I see the DA Haemie as more than just a "tax". It can do a lot of things:
- if he is your warlord, he is hard to slay to get a VP
- if he is your warlord, the trait is great to further enhance the staying power of the MCs.
- it add flexibility in terms of different builds (wwp option, artefacts, another liquifier, weapons)
- "look out sir" like you said to distribute wounds
- Still add punch in assault
- the option to initiate challenges
- meat shield with IWND

I'll try DA again this weekend, against orks in a 1500 pts game. This time I'll try them cheaper without a wwp as an area denial + countercharge unit.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Thu Nov 20 2014, 10:50

Just remember that LOS applies the wounds to the nearest friendly model in the unit. It doesn't let you split them around however you want. It plays out pretty similarly to just having the talos in the front one turn and then switching the cronos to the front the next.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Thu Nov 20 2014, 11:43

If you're not too concerned about template/blast weapons you can always put the Haem in b2b with both Talos and Cronos and then you can choose which to LoS to each time.

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Thu Nov 20 2014, 20:12

@lessthanjeff wrote:
Just remember that LOS applies the wounds to the nearest friendly model in the unit.  It doesn't let you split them around however you want.  It plays out pretty similarly to just having the talos in the front one turn and then switching the cronos to the front the next.
Yep yep, and you get to choose if both the Talos and Cronos are in b2b with the Haemy. With only 3 models being moved around in CC, not hard at all to accomplish with this unit.

With leanings towards making the Haemy of a Dark Artisan Warlord, or whatever else... do any of you bother kitting him out with weapons? If so, what?

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Thu Nov 20 2014, 23:32

With a wwp, I tried a liquifier. If the blast pistol was an option I would use it for sure with the talos TLHL for a rear shot.

I tried a scissorhand because it is cheap and gives you a chance against armor. But I didnt try anything else yet. I would like to use the supplement artefacts, but I'm not impressed by them for the DA formation. If allowed the codex parasite kiss would be nice.

Maybe the haemovores. It gives you an additionnal pile in move, and against low armor target it can be useful. But who wants to hunt low armor target with two AP2 monsters?
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Fri Nov 21 2014, 00:38

Well maybe if the DA is deployed T1 in centerfield, the sump could be useful to get IWND sooner. The poisoned option is already covered by flesh gauntlet/scissorhand/agoniser, but rampage is useful in a 3 model unit.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Fri Nov 21 2014, 11:14

@Count Adhemar wrote:
If you're not too concerned about template/blast weapons you can always put the Haem in b2b with both Talos and Cronos and then you can choose which to LoS to each time.

Interesting, I never thought of trying to keep them actually in base to base. I do often try to put my captains out front an equal distance from 2 models so that I can do that though. Sadly, in my first game using the dark artisan formation I was hit by a forgeworld eldar unit that fires barrage blasts with distort and had to look on in sadness as they got hit with instant death weapons allowing neither armor saves nor feel no pains.

For the gearing questions, I didn't even give mine the wwp because I didn't want to lose a couple turns of assaulting from the unit and I kind of wanted to draw the opponents fire. I think I will try the nightmare doll next time to knock out the vulnerability to instant death though.
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Mononcule
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Sun Nov 23 2014, 23:54

I played DA in a third game: 1500 pts vs orks. They were deployed centrally T1, without additionnal templates.

They were a useful fire magnet for the lootas, but the ork player deployed a lot of tankbustas, so a rain of S8AP3 rockets shot down the Talos, and I missed my 2+ LOS so the haemie (warlord) got slain in one shot.

The lone Cronos, however, thanks to Fear and Freakish spectacle, locked down in combat hardboys and nob bikers for 2+ turns Smile

A very nice unit, but orks rokkits are the perfect cheap counter to them. A WWP would have been more useful to avoid ~2 turns of shooting.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Dark Artisans: know where to land   Mon Nov 24 2014, 10:03

Your Haemy shouldn't have died in 1 shot. He's Toughness 7 when being shot at whilst in a unit of Toughness 7 average.
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