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 Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?

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What is your go to?
Raider with many upgrades with full squads
14%
 14% [ 7 ]
Raider with a no/few upgrades with full squads
28%
 28% [ 14 ]
Raider with no/few upgrades with small squads
12%
 12% [ 6 ]
Venom with 5 men with a blaster
30%
 30% [ 15 ]
Venom with 5 men
8%
 8% [ 4 ]
Other
8%
 8% [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 50
 

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PostSubject: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Thu Nov 13 2014, 10:55

How are people inclined now the 7th edition has been out for a while? What do you prefer as a solid troop unit?

There are other discussions on this but the issue arises for comparison when you take into account all the different potential builds so:
For the purposes of discussion lets separate the builds into categories (particularly for the Raiders)

1) All the trimmings (upgrades everywhere, full squads of 10 with special weapons)
2) Vanilla (more or less as they come with say an extra venom cannon)
3) Diet ( a few upgrades/weapons, small unit sizes etc)

What do you enjoy using? What do you find effective?

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Thu Nov 13 2014, 11:22

I'm a raider with dark lance, splinter racks and 10 kabbies with no upgrades guy myself. Sometimes I'll take night shields, others i want those points elsewhere.

BUT

Venoms with 5 kabbies and blaster run this build very close, and at higher points they're the first thing on my list.

I take the gunboat option mainly because the splinter racks give me an unquantifiable resiliency against a bad roll when shooting that the venom can't provide (too many times I've seen 10 dice come up with 2 hits etc)

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Thu Nov 13 2014, 13:03

Venom with Blaster for me.
By the time you've upgraded a Warrior squad, I think ypu've got too much variation there that specializes too much. One Dark lance, and thats a ten man sqwuad with ONE shot against a vehicle.
Better to keep it small, one 5 man squad with a weapon to shoot a vehicle and an upgraded Venom for anti-troop.
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Thu Nov 13 2014, 13:15

I prefer a mix of MSU Raiders and Venoms. But I usually take more Venoms than raiders so I voted Venom. And both with Blasters ofcourse.

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Thu Nov 13 2014, 13:25

Squidmaster wrote:
Venom with Blaster for me.
By the time you've upgraded a Warrior squad, I think ypu've got too much variation there that specializes too much. One Dark lance, and thats a ten man sqwuad with ONE shot against a vehicle.
Better to keep it small, one 5 man squad with a weapon to shoot a vehicle and an upgraded Venom for anti-troop.

It's still only one weapon to shoot a vehicle on the venom, with a shorter range and that prevents you from firing 4 AI weapons at infantry, and the dual splinter cannons on their own are drastically outperformed by 10 warriors with splinter rifles and splinter racks (1.3r wounds against MEQ compared to 2.96 for the gunboat in rapid fire range)

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Thu Nov 13 2014, 14:06

As long as you get to rapid fire range Razz
I've seen that you like to deep strike your stuff in Burning Eye but there is significant risk there! I will not argue that a gunboat is by any means bad (because it is not). Dropping in and ganging up on something I great but I must say I enjoy opening the Venom-powerhose and going come at me bro from range and watch as you outmaneuver what ever infantry is coming at you. While getting a raider into rapid fire, damaging an enemy then watch as the raider and occupants get ripped apart can be less fun ( if things don't go to plan!). The warriors in the venom can then be used in tandem with the venom or by going drive by on a small unit or vehicle. Its fun for me, and never underestimate the power of flickerfields!

Edit: Must also say that mathammer is difficult in this situation for the points costs are quite different! Think the full gunboat vs venom is about 50 points difference when done like that!

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Thu Nov 13 2014, 14:25

I'd say deep strike isn't significant risk - I've done it 11 times now with raiders/venoms and haven't mishapped. only managed 1 'hit' with them too, it's more about placing your units appropriately when choosing where to DS.

Remember average roll is 7 on 2D6, ideally you want to stay within 12", but take into account the shape of the raider and that you measure weapon range from any point on the hull. Orientation of the raider is also important, not least because the dark lance on the front has restricted movement due to the hull itself. The long, narrow profile helps you to avoid mishap issues though since for anything other than a very wide frontage obstacle, if the scatter arrow is not directly at it then you can slip by the side of an obstacle pretty easily.

Sure things don't always go to plan but remember that passengers on transports can overwatch someone charging the transport, and splinter racks work then as well, a full unit of warriors should get near enough 6 hits on a unit charging the raider. And then if they do destroy your raider, you can hose them down again in your next turn (assuming that unlike me you can pass pinning tests).

I don't underestimate the flickerfield at all, it saves 1 in 3 hull point losses (or none if you roll like me), so 2/3 of the time the venom is as robust as a raider that doesn't jink. Thing is, for the price of 2 of my gunboats, you can only get 2 warrior filled venoms, and the damage output of the gunboats is higher in their operational range bracket than the venom is (even if the venom is slightly better value).

Don't get me started on the waste that is venoms if your opponent brings drop pods! So much for the advantage of range...

As I've said, I don't have a downer on venoms with warriors in, they are still a good, and good value, choice, I just don't think they stand head and shoulders above a properly operated gunboat like many seem to think.

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Thu Nov 13 2014, 14:42

Very true, I see flickers as good for venoms because it stops the snap shot for example if you want to risk not jinking but where there is so much ignore cover I find it really does help limit the amount that goes down!

If you face a drop pod army most vehicles are a waste though!

Also how much are you running each boat for? The cheapest I can see with 10 men is 135 points while  a venom unit is 105. So for the same price of 2 bare bones gunboats you can at least get 2 Venoms with 5 bare kabalites and then another venom on top of that? Or add two blasters I guess but your still under.

I'm still one for running a bit of both in bigger games!

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Thu Nov 13 2014, 14:51

Absolutely, anything above 1500 and I have two gunboats and two venoms.

The builds I'd run a venom with 5 kabbies and a blaster, and raider with dark lance, splinter racks and 10 kabbies

They equate to 120 and 155, so for two gunboats at 310, I can get two of the venom builds. I can fit in an empty venom on top of that yes, but then you're away from the realm of providing dark light and anti infantry in the one place (although there's not a huge amount of effective you can get for 70pts, barebones haemy i guess - i'd never take a barebones archon though)

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Thu Nov 13 2014, 15:22

Its true. One of the reasons its difficult to compare really. Unless you got to a number which was equal points!

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Thu Nov 13 2014, 18:35

You should have allowed people to make multiple selections. I run both Raiders and Venoms w. 5 man Blaster squads.

I voted for the Raider one as I still am more likely to take more of those than I do Venoms, but it's a close call and I would have liked to have voted for each.

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Thu Nov 13 2014, 19:09

Ah multiple choice, thought I would force peoples hand to have to pick one. Out of interest why raiders rather than venoms? Is it the dark lance addition or hull points/survivability?

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Thu Nov 13 2014, 19:49

I consider the Raiders *or* Venoms choice to be an empty one. the correct answer has been, and likely will continue to be, Raiders *and* Venoms.

The question is what you put inside each one, but each vehicle is good and fulfills a different role and both roles are needed. The actual competition is Gunboats or Venoms - and I think the Venom is solidly superior to the Gunboat in multiple ways.

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Thu Nov 13 2014, 20:12

Oh yes, no doubt raiders and venoms and what you put into them is the real answer/question. But I guess from the perspective of a transport and running kabalites in them? As a simplification to a complicated question.

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Thu Nov 13 2014, 20:26

Then my answer remains 'both'.

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Mon Dec 22 2014, 19:08

Gunboat Raiders.

I just don't like Venom spam. Massed Venoms (Lists with five or more) make me think, in the parlance of our times, "damn, that Archon don't got enough bank, yo. Needs to get him a real whip like my bad-ass Raider crew, what!"

Or something. Sorry, I've been listening to too much Forge The Narrative since I ran out of Splintermind episodes.

The core of my army is a trio of 200-point gunboats called Insidious, Suspiria and Phantasm. Each one packs a disintegrator cannon, night shields, enhanced aether sails and splinter racks, and carries a squad of ten Kabalite Warriors with a Blaster and Splinter Cannon. In the movement phase that unit goes wherever the hell they please, and pack enough re-rolling firepower to bag a few 'nids if they even manage to charge the knife-like shadow craft.

I JUST WISH SOMEONE WOULD BRING NIDS TO FIGHT ME!

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Mon Dec 22 2014, 20:07

5 man w/ Blaster in Venom. On their own, meh, but fielding 3-6 of these bad boys, and deploying them in various spots along the battlefield to then pounce on an unsuspecting enemy unit can be devastating. Also, these are the guys that usually bring Stormravens crashing down for me lol

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Mon Dec 22 2014, 20:17

My "cheap" version
Raider, Splinter Racks, Night Shields, Dark lance
K. Warriors x10, Sybarite (maybe splinter cannon too)

... they just stay 24" away from any danger while shooting, or come close to finish squads. Splinter Cannon because of the potential damage bonus. You know, more pain is always worth the price.

My "expensive" version
Raider, Splinter Racks, Night Shields, Dark lance
K. Warriors x10, Splinter Cannon, Blaster, S. Cannon, Sybarite, Haywire Grenades.

...like the previous one, but with the bonus for anti-vehicle role. They are quite good, if you add the lance from the Raider, at removing up to three Hull Points (lance, blaster, HG), specially if you Deep Strike or move behind the target (when it's AV10).
Too many eggs in one basket? Maybe, but I like their potential as it gives me more options, for example when a Drop pod appears in my zone, these units can remove both the occupants and the pod.

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Mon Dec 22 2014, 22:52

Raider with few upgrades, full squads.

Venom with one special weapon on board is the close second.
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Tue Dec 23 2014, 01:57

Thor665 wrote:
I consider the Raiders *or* Venoms choice to be an empty one. the correct answer has been, and likely will continue to be, Raiders *and* Venoms.

The question is what you put inside each one, but each vehicle is good and fulfills a different role and both roles are needed. The actual competition is Gunboats or Venoms - and I think the Venom is solidly superior to the Gunboat in multiple ways.

I've always wondered why you thought that Thor. I think the changes in 7th give more clout to gunboats than in the past edition, but you've held the opinion venoms > gunboats for ages now and I'm curious why.

By the way I chose venom with five man blaster, but like Thor I run both. It's just that's probably the most efficient use of points in the entire codex. For 120 points you get a little unit that can do a little of everything. I do like gunboats too though. Twin-linked volume of fire that doesn't make snapshots after a jink is nothing to be scoffed at, and a dark lance on a vehicle is always better than a blaster.

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Tue Dec 23 2014, 07:04

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Thor665 wrote:
The actual competition is Gunboats or Venoms - and I think the Venom is solidly superior to the Gunboat in multiple ways.

I've always wondered why you thought that Thor. I think the changes in 7th give more clout to gunboats than in the past edition, but you've held the opinion venoms > gunboats for ages now and I'm curious why.
I've described it a few times and in in a few ways, but there are a handful of core elements. I would say it comes down to the following 3 bullet points;

  • Cost
  • Threat Bubble
  • Target Spread


The first is relatively simple - the basic Gunboat build is 185 points or so. The Basic Venom build is 120. So for the cost of 2 Gunboats I can afford 3 Venom builds and have points left over-ish.

The Gunboats get 2 lances and 26 poison shots (44 within 12") in 6 hull points.
The Venoms get 3 lances and 36 poison shots in 6 hull points (12/24 more if I count the inside Troops).

So, with BS 4 and the twin linking as a consideration - the Gunboats will hit with 1.33 lances and 23.1 poison shots (39 within 12").
The Venoms will hit with 2 lances and 24 poison shots (32/40 if counting the inside Troops).

The second point is a huge one as well - as the above numbers reflect, the Gunboats are only able to do more damage than the Venoms within 12" - outside of 12" the Venoms are superior, and the Venoms can do that with a 42" threat bubble, whereas the Gunboat only has an 18" threat bubble. So Gunboats are markedly slower than the Venoms, and not able to bring their poison to bear remotely as well in my opinion.

Finally, there is the art of overkilling. In a perfect world you never want to overkill a foe. With 3 Venoms I can focus fire if needed, or split amongst three opponents. Also, as shown in the above numbers the troops inside the Venoms are their own tools as well, their firepower, when added to the Venoms' actually exceeds the Gunboats' optimal firing situation - showing that I ma getting more firepower for equal points expenditure in literally every way imaginable. I have more anti-mech or more anti-infantry by taking the Venoms depending on where I wish to target the Troops. What this does is give me more options and a better overall TAC build than Gunboats can manage as I am getting more units, and more adaptable units, for equal or less cost than what the Gunboat brings.

That is, in a nutshell, why I consider the Gunboat a pretty 'meh' build. It's not bad, really, it's just that the Venom build is superior.

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Tue Dec 23 2014, 07:39

I agree with Thor on all points except one:

FMC:s

Splinter racks makes gun boats efficient FMC hunters that DE normally lack.

And to prove my point I calculated the wounds using 2 gunboats with racks and 3 venoms for several threath ranges (movement 12" + shooting splinter. Dark light not included)

Threath range 24" Gunboats 12,2 wounds, Venoms 10 wounds
Threath range 36" Gunboats 6,1 wounds, Venoms 8 wounds
Threath range 48" Gunboats 0 wounds, Venoms 6 wounds

I have to revice even that aspect. Venoms are better.

Raider looks cooler though Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Tue Dec 23 2014, 08:58

I used to enjoy a bit of both, however with current trends in other armies im finding that going back to good ol' 5++ flickerfields is giving me some relief! Which is leading me to using raiders as nothing more than an express way to the frontline rather than a mobile platform.

Raiders are something that I want to put my warriors in until I get flamed or smart missiles to death and regret the point investment. Some games fine, but the venom is just so much more versatile if running a kabalite shooting list. Raiders with sails however are still the first class tracked post to deliver a sweet grotesque package.

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Tue Dec 23 2014, 10:07

I mainly run Raiders with Lance, Racks, 10 Kabs with Blaster and Cannon. The Venoms are left for my Blasterborn.
Took part in a tournament this weekend and trialled 5 Kabs with a blaster in a Venom, but it didn't really deliver, mostly because I was against mostly Mech lists. Saying that, it was my last Troops unit on the board so I could see how it would work, probably as a flanking unit in comparison to big gunboats. Will have to run a few more and see how they do!

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboat Raiders or Venom Platforms?   Tue Dec 23 2014, 11:58

Here's my opinion on gunboat vs venom: if the Raider jinks (4+ or 3+ save with NS, which I always take) you only snap fire with the lance/DC. Here the boat sacrifices a little bit of shooting but gives you survivability.
If the venom doesn't jink gets a 5++ save and gets his 12x SC shots. If it jinks, (4+ save), the same but only snap firing on 6s, so you lose a lot of shots for a little more survivability (then why bother jinking, ah yes, surviving).

On the other side, passengers shoot normally (unless moving >6"), but only with Gunboats you can reroll all the splinter to-hit rolls.

So the dilemma lies if you want more survivability and effectiveness (gunboats) or just want cheaper shots from a safer distance (venoms). To me, I want my warriors in the fight, were they can score and use all their potential for dealing pain.

If I want venoms, I buy them for trueborns (whose will probably disembark as exploding is risky and I can get cover saves elsewhere) or for wracks.

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