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 So i need some help with my reavers

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Tue Nov 11 2014, 20:07

Personally, I would never upgrade a shooting weapon on a reaver, as if I am not jinking with them, i am using them wrong.
I take them:
12 reavers/ 4 caltrops/ autarch/ bike/ shard/ banshee mask

This is my "new" deathstar unit for Dark Eldar. It is nowhere near as good as the old beastpack/baron/farseer combo, but it still shines!

It is a harrassment and tank killer unit. It surrounds vehicles, killing everyone inside, it takes out riptides and smaller units.

think of them like a wolfpack, circling the enemy, darting in to kill stragglers or to take down a big target as a pack. It forces the opponent to move where you want them to go, it forces him to "circle the wagons" to protect his smaller, more valuable units. And while he is doing that, the rest of your army is raining death from a safe distance.

Even a rear charge on an imperial knight is a threat in a do or die situation.

HOWEVER... even fearless with the shard, if I see 3 wyverns on the table... my bikes won't be on it, or they will be well over 48" away!

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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Tue Nov 11 2014, 20:55

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Personally, I would never upgrade a shooting weapon on a reaver, as if I am not jinking with them, i am using them wrong.

Reavers, to me, are a distraction unit. A single unit of Reavers will accomplish less than a single unit of something else (like Scourge, Grotesques, etc.). Using them as wounds for a deathstar will work well but what makes that work is the Eldar allies you're pulling in. One hit from something that ignores cover and it falls to pieces.

With Reavers being a distraction unit, they turn into a disposable one. Not ideal for kill points; however, can be used to take heat off of another unit or used to whittle down something through multiple units concentrating instead of a 1 v 1 strategy. Also, they can be used to completely interfere with an opponent's movement/shooting by getting between them and their prime target/path.

Personally - Reavers have accomplished little for me in the handful of different sized games that I've played with them. Sometimes they do well in terms of killing things, but often, they buy me time for my other units to get into position - which is worthwhile given the fragility of our units as a whole. I haven't had the time to try out my main MSU list I posted in the army list section that uses 4 units of 3 reavers but hope to soon. To me, they are not a close combat unit nor a shooting unit. You can use them as a suicidal hammer with caltrops or a way to get a melta-shot on a Knight but I do not expect them to survive at the end of the battle nor for every unit of them to make up their points.
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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Tue Nov 11 2014, 22:30

I have started running mine as most people here, just a blob of 9 without special ranged weapons, since theyll be jinking or boosting always.

The great thing about reavers with CC is that they have an insane damage potential (infact I destroyed a GK strike squad with a termy HQ attached to it purely through HoW sunday), they are capable of (for a squad of 9) putting out up to 24 rending hits followed by 27 more in CC, and this is scary!

They suffer greatly from anything with Ignores Cover though(or even worse, Smart missile systems, damn the tsu and their hardcounters!) and even when you do get the saves, they still drop like marines.

The combination of these two things make them an awesome distraction unit: it is worth it for your opponent to shoot at them because they will die, and he wants to shoot them, because if he doesnt he risks them destroying transports and riotides as mentioned above

My personal preference is to field them alongside a unit of grots: if he dedicates all his firepower towards the reavers, your grots will suffer less. If he shoots the grots the reavers will destroy him. So basically, whether or not they do any significant damage is up to your opponent, whether they are worth their points is determined by how you use them

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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Tue Nov 11 2014, 23:09

Reavers are Dark Eldar incarnate, they are fast, fragile and epitomise death by a thousand cuts. And like any glass cannon, sometimes it shatters (I should write fortune cookies). I think they actually have two ways to play them. You either go for small squads and give them a heatlance with the intention of zooming about late game trying to stay out of los and jumping on vehicles. Or you play them in squads of 6 or more with cluster caltrops and maybe an arena champ with power weapon or ago. These are your jinking sharks to jump on small units then cripple them and run away. The latter being the better in my opinion ( if only they got dodge Sad )

They can be durable and useful but they are not for hitting stuff head on. They are used to deny flanks, to draw your opponent away and to hide out of los. Like most dark eldar.

Are scourges better? Perhaps although maybe not as versatile, and the deepstrike thing, well your scourges don't really ever want to be close to anything and the reaver turbo boost is pretty good for manoeuvring!

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helvexis
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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Wed Nov 12 2014, 16:55

i tested a game against nids with 4 squads of 12 with squad leader and caltrops and i have tested them against a few other individual units just to see how they do one on one.

i wouldnt suggest anything less than a 9 man squad if not a 12 as you need the extra bodies to take the hits so the caltrops and champion dont die as they are what do the real damage.

i havent bothered taking blasters or heat lances as of yet because ive been jjinking with them alot more than not. i have been tempted to take 1 or 2 in a 9 man squad just for the odd chance they do pop a transport and can then charge the occupants but i havent tested it and i wouldnt bother with more than 2.

also in combat they do well against most things for a round with HoW and 3 attacks on the charge before drug effects.

4 caltrops average 14 hits against a wave serpent that is 2.3 penetrations on front or side if you get the other 8 into contact which is unlikely but possible you have a 66% chance of doing a glancing or penetrating hit.

against 10 marines you once again get 14 hits from the caltrops and 8 hits from the bladevanes, which is 2.33 dead from caltrop rending, 9.33 wounds from the caltrops, 1.33 rends from the bladevanes, 2.66 wounds.

3.66 kills from rending
12 wounds = 4 kills
=7.66 kills before attacks.
37 attacks=18.5 hits=6.16 wounds
2.05 kills
9.71 kills w/o drugs

5 TH/SS terminators 3.66 rends, 12 wounds
1.22kills from rending
2 kills from wounds
=3.22 kills before attacks
37 attacks=18.5 hits=6.16 wounds
1.02kills
4.24 total kills w/o drugs

5.6 unsaved wounds on centurions after attacks w/o drugs
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Unorthodoxy
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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Thu Nov 13 2014, 21:00

Pretty compelling. Lot of bodies needed to do it so the ablation seems mandatory if you takle this approach.

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helvexis
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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Thu Nov 13 2014, 21:40

which is indeed why the squad size is so large to take the hits for the caltrops which are what do the real damage
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Amornar
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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Thu Nov 13 2014, 22:31

Has anyone done some dedicated testing of ~4 msu 3 man units of Reavers yet? I see the topic brought up a lot about trying it vs a single 9 or 12 man unit but a lack of actual results/battle reports/etc. I would be really keen to hear from any other archons that have tested this out on the table.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Sat Nov 15 2014, 14:17

I have been running 3 units of 6 reavers at 1850-2000pts. Sometimes 2 units with caltrops 1 with heatlances sometimes the opposite. They have never let me down!

The trick is......... They need a decent WWP  bom to work with and take the pressure off them!

It could be a slyth  bom  or a grot  bom  or something from the elder or coven books but with a good  bom  they are free to zoom around stripping off the last hull point or 2 here, cutting down a small unit (or the remnants of a large one) there, all the while being surprisingly difficult to kill thanks to their speed, jink, FNP, hit and run and just being so far forward that they have time to rally even if they break.

They usually collect more maelstrom points than the rest of my army put together and thus win me the game even if they all die.  Very Happy
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Aroban
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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Sat Nov 15 2014, 16:22

Tried the 4 times 3 man squads yesterday. I don't see a lot of disadvantages to a having 1 or 2 larger squads.

I agree on the opinion about cluster caltrops, they really do a lot of damage.

Small units perform well if played right. With 4 units I think I only jinked once last game, with just 1 unit (but hellturkey made them die without even thinking about jink Very Happy). It is a tough call what to aim at such a unit. I also recommend the blaster or HL option on small units.

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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Sat Nov 15 2014, 22:33

Only had one game with Reavers so far with the new Codex. I ran 3 x 6 Reavers w/ max caltrops and blasters in a 1000pt list vs Spac Wolves and they did me proud both shooting and assaulting. As a few people have said though, I find their biggest strength is in Maelstrom games to just zip about picking up VPs by claiming objectives.

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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Tue Nov 18 2014, 23:05

@Plastikente wrote:
I find their biggest strength is in Maelstrom games to just zip about picking up VPs by claiming objectives.

As someone who doesn't mind running eldar allies, I don't really see this as much of a strength compared to what else we have available to us.

Eldar jetbikes can get "objective secured", move just as fast as reavers, and are harder to kill both at range and in CC(with a 3+ armor save). Costing about the same as reavers, if this is their primary use, eldar jetbikes are far superior at that job.

No, I think reavers need to stand on their own combat ability in order to justify their inclusion in my lists; Something I'm questioning whether they can really do.

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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Wed Nov 19 2014, 00:33

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Plastikente wrote:
I find their biggest strength is in Maelstrom games to just zip about picking up VPs by claiming objectives.

As someone who doesn't mind running eldar allies, I don't really see this as much of a strength compared to what else we have available to us.

Eldar jetbikes can get "objective secured", move just as fast as reavers, and are harder to kill both at range and in CC(with a 3+ armor save). Costing about the same as reavers, if this is their primary use, eldar jetbikes are far superior at that job.

No, I think reavers need to stand on their own combat ability in order to justify their inclusion in my lists; Something I'm questioning whether they can really do.


  • They don't have bladestorm but they have poison (and their HoW does actual rending).
  • They aren't as durable in combat, but they have Feel No Pain.
  • They hit much harder in combat, and have Hit & Run.
  • Reavers can take Characters
  • Reavers have Combat Drugs
  • Reavers have Power from Pain (one example being they can secure objectives with fearless)

I'm sure there's more to it but I'm not smart enough to come up with any more at the moment.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Wed Nov 19 2014, 01:11

@Khordajj wrote:

[*]They don't have bladestorm but they have poison (and their HoW does actual rending).
Meh, it's ok.

@Khordajj wrote:
[*]They aren't as durable in combat, but they have Feel No Pain.
Not to begin with, and it's sort of slow coming, which is unbecoming of their speed, and works against them doing anything until later rounds if you want to try to depend on this. Overall still less surviveable than standard eldar windrider jetbikes.

@Khordajj wrote:
[*]They hit much harder in combat, and have Hit & Run.
Sure, they hit harder. Much harder, even. But we're talking about the difference between being hit with a feather or a pebble. Neither one is THAT scary.(But the latter at least has that CHANCE to take out Goliath!) But they still have no AP unless they rend, and in those situations where you don't get lucky with rending, they're sitting there with t-shirt armor saves locked in combat. Good luck against anything even remotely CC-capable.

@Khordajj wrote:
[*]Reavers can take Characters
Awesome, so they get a points sink! Yay for them! Maybe the leadership upgrade is worth it on larger unit sizes, but if you're going larger unit sizes, it will take more deaths in a single turn in order to force a test to begin with, so probably not really worth it. And as for giving a champion a melee weapon...no thanks. I'm not putting 15 or 25 points weapon on a 16 point model that has a 5+ save and no assault grenades.

@Khordajj wrote:
[*]Reavers have Combat Drugs
Combat drugs are pretty bad these days. At least last edition we had a way to add a bit to our chance of getting a good roll. But with the loss of Duke Sliscus, combat drugs are less reliable than ever, and shouldn't be considered when determining what to expect out of a unit. They are bonus-only, in the case you just happen to get something halfway decent. I've played 6 games in the new system while fielding units that had combat drugs. I've had the leadership buff 3 times, the initiative buff twice, and once I got the weapon skill buff once. Consider me unimpressed. I think, if they were going to take away our ability to manipulate combat drugs rolls via Duke Sliscus, they should have compressed the combat drugs list into 3 undeniably useful options: +1 Attack, +1 Strength, or +1 Toughness. But they didn't, and so it sucks.

@Khordajj wrote:
[*]Reavers have Power from Pain (one example being they can secure objectives with fearless)

Meh, they don't get fearless until VERY late in the game. If they're still around at that point, you're either lucky, or you're winning already. And if given the option between fearless 5+ Reavers to try to contest an objective, or Non-fearless 3+ Eldar Windriders with Obsec to contest an objective, I'd take the eldar jetbikes almost every time.

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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Wed Nov 19 2014, 11:59

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Plastikente wrote:
I find their biggest strength is in Maelstrom games to just zip about picking up VPs by claiming objectives.

As someone who doesn't mind running eldar allies, I don't really see this as much of a strength compared to what else we have available to us.

Eldar jetbikes can get "objective secured", move just as fast as reavers, and are harder to kill both at range and in CC(with a 3+ armor save). Costing about the same as reavers, if this is their primary use, eldar jetbikes are far superior at that job.

No, I think reavers need to stand on their own combat ability in order to justify their inclusion in my lists; Something I'm questioning whether they can really do.

I take elder jetbike allies too and they are cool but...

Skilled rider and PFP makes the DE jetbikes tougher than the eldar to kill from shooting, means they can go places that may kill the elder bikes and as mentioned makes them far superior to eldar in combat.

The reavers have far more wargear options, that gives you flexibility and access to an AT punch the eldar don't have.

Obsec is ok but is rarely used on such a fast platform.

Basically elder jetbikes are for running around grabbing OBJ. Reavers can do that job cheaper if you want as well as a lot of things the elder bikes cannot that's why I like them better.
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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Wed Nov 19 2014, 12:51

i agree with you that they need to stand as combat units not just as objective steals which they can do but as you say not as good as windriders.

however i think they do stand on their own merits as a combat unit against any target and compared to any other unit in our codex as well. The lack of grenades hurts a bit but seeing as there are only 2 units with grenades outside of the hq slot lack of grenades is a pretty standard codex gripe not reaver gripe.
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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Wed Nov 19 2014, 14:25

Reavers are poachers. Whatever way you use them whether its as back field tank hunters, hammer if wrath delivery boys or objective grabbers. There strength is the speed to flank or rush an under-manned flank. Then you can either poach a tank from close up, maybe spring on that devastator squad at the back or grab one of there objectives.


Sending them head first into the fray is a no no. Toughness 4 is effectively nothing in 40K. It gives the illusion that they are tough when they are not. Close combat with something you cant wipe first time is a bad idea and even with that 3+ jink any sustained shooting is going to cause serious pain. Windriders are arguably better bikes (as Eldar are basically better everything, god I hope they tone then down) but they are not as versatile. Reavers get some great cc options and even some good shooting options if you can avoid jinking.

So long story short, ignore windriders, comparing anything to eldar is like comparing a guy in a suit of armour to a Challenger 2. But Reavers are a solid poacher unit. Never play fair. Jump on stuff you can almost certainly kill and don't get shot back. Sending them into large/well armoured squads isn't an effective use of them, let them finish stuff off and annoy people in the back field/flanks.

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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Wed Nov 19 2014, 17:58

Some very good points in this discussion.
To my feeling I would either go 9 with CC and Agonising Champ to make the most out of assault & H&R or go multiple 3 with HL and CC. Just to oversaturate and make people freak out over Melta. I like this set-up because it packs a lot of potential treat for "only" 73 points. Sure you would need RR of 2x CAD but as there is a loophole in the court wording, you can easily ignore this.

I really like a throw away unit with such a fantastic speed as you can't ignore it and you can drop it in his Backfield on T1 if you can hide behind LoS blocking and only 3 models means that he will overkill or barrage has a good chance of scattering off this unit. Otherwise also great for reserving as you have enough units to ensure some come in on T2.
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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Thu Nov 20 2014, 00:44

@El_Jairo wrote:
Some very good points in this discussion.
To my feeling I would either go 9 with CC and Agonising Champ to make the most out of assault & H&R or go multiple 3 with HL and CC. Just to oversaturate and make people freak out over Melta. I like this set-up because it packs a lot of potential treat for "only" 73 points. Sure you would need RR of 2x CAD but as there is a loophole in the court wording, you can easily ignore this.
Don't do this. Taking upgrades on the Arena Champion is inefficient use of points. You'd be better off taking more Reavers unless you specifically need to abuse Character rules.
Secondly, don't take shooting weapons on Reavers. If you jink, you lose their shooting. If you don't jink, they're dead -- it's not hard to kill 3 reavers.

I really don't like MSU Reavers. Just because they're smaller units doesn't mean you can hide them. You have to move them up the board eventually.

If you're going to MSU, they're best left unupgraded. At least that's my opinion. Someone can probably tell me why I'm wrong
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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Thu Nov 20 2014, 04:09

I've been running two units of nine with Heat Lances and Caltrops since the book hit and they have been a key unit for me.

Their success definitely depends on what is allowed and what rules are being played. They are significantly better in Maelstrom-style missions. I include Heat Lances because I regularly face super heavies and require the extra hitting power.

I've begun holding them off the board against anything that has ignore cover though.
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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Wed Dec 03 2014, 06:24

Had a game lately vs SM where 2 of my 3 man bikers equipped with blaster and cc boosted up turn 1towards his thunderfire cannon, then lost 1 squad to shooting and in turn 2 the other unharmed squad shot his blaster, ID the techmarine and next turn took out a devastor squad nearby and boosted on objective last turn.... Really important targets that were hidden in the corner and otherwise be really hard to get for me

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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Wed Dec 03 2014, 10:37

I still say they are best left in reserve and only would advocate shooting weapons on them if you do have spare points. Its the cluster caltrops which are the best weapon bo doubt. So boost them up a flank, try and keep out of LoS and try to make them assault. Because reavers cant take any punishment. You MUST always be the first to assault otherwise you will lose out. Last game I had with them, one unit of 6 with two clusters took out a 4 man terminator squad without being hit back. The other squad failed there charge against a devastator squad. My opponent actually did something I would not expect and instead of shooting the lascannons at them, decided to charge them instead. The result was I killed 1 marine. He killed 2 reavers. I lost combat, and the squad ran away. Thought that summed up the reavers perfectly. As long as you are on the offence, you are going to win. You go defense you are going to die quick.

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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Thu Dec 04 2014, 15:07

In my local league (I missed the sign-up, even though my friend is running it... that was a fail), I was surprised to find that even though there are 3 guys running DE, only one of them has brought bikes (though lists can change between games before the finals, and I can only watch one at a time). The 'regular season' portion was 750p and he usually ran 2 min squads w/CC & HL and when they didn't die early (rarely did, not too much cheese in the meta), they made excellent use of both upgrades.
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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Fri Dec 19 2014, 11:24

I've tried 12 jetbikes with 4 clusters and 4 blasters. .... Note to self, don't ever put that many points into a bike unit. You probably better off with max 9. The point of the bike unit is to tactically instill fear into the opponent. Play mind games with your opponent.  Now you may say, an experienced player wouldn't fear what he has dealt with already. But ask this. Who would ever ignore an incredibly fast unit that is capable of ruining the most intricate, well planned strategy an opponent can ever create. An AS player brought nothing but leman ruses and 3 manticores. He ignored my 9 bikes. For 2 turns. He lost half his force, trying to make up for the vehicle destruction. He turned his forces around to deal with them. He made a tactical mistake that allowed me to focus fire on his leman ruses one by one. He lost based on attrition. Although, you'd play very aggressive with them, hence the tank popping. I know it's exciting, but don't throw the unit away either. I know this post is a little bit long, I can't seem to handle seeing such great potential being wasted. Bikes are amazing. Consider at least one unit or make up in bodies. Cheers Wink

Adding to casualties, if you keep losing your Reavers. Try the following, boost into their deployment turn 1. In a 4 x 4 board your in their deployment edge. Put them in a line. That way you minimize aoe casualties. If they have flamers, surround them if possible to minimize casualties. Form a ring or semicircle if you can. If they have ignores cover, hide them behind BLOS terrain.

I had this work 80% of the time. With aoes max casualties unless it's a large blast would be max 2 according to the situation. With flamers 2 again as the ring puts so much space between your bikes that flaming in one direction would only ever get 2 bikes at most. I know this may seem absurd, that a line or ring of them with spell disaster, but ask this. Would you rather get charged or shot by more guys and lose some bikes versus a good clump of them next to each other blown to pieces?

I'm eager to see replies from you Smile Let me know if this strategy doesn't work and I'll see why and how it doesn't. Cheers Wink
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PostSubject: Re: So i need some help with my reavers   Fri Dec 19 2014, 11:58

Please do not double post but use edit function instead ///Vasara


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