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 best use of two Voidravens

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: best use of two Voidravens    Thu Nov 06 2014, 06:08

Due to some miscommunication, it looks like I'll have two Voidraven Bombers. As I usually go more for best appearance then general, I think two bombers could be good on the appearance front.

How would you best use two bombers to maximize their output? Please don't say put them back on the shelf. Typical tournament rules in the area are two detachments and I usually have Eldar allies. My army had typically relied on Wyches, a Ravager, and a Wraithknight for anti tank. Losing Haywire was a bit painful for me.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: best use of two Voidravens    Thu Nov 06 2014, 06:19

I will use it as a bomber role, maybe thats too much points for the oomph but whatever.

4 Shatterfields
Dark Scythes
Night Shields.

I expect 2-3 turns of fire.

I know it certainly does cost too much for AA role, those 2 Void Lances arent that impressive. Crimson Hunter is miles ahead of it.

I think it might work ok against parking lot armies, who create wall of cover with lots of transports and tanks in their deployment zone.

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PostSubject: Re: best use of two Voidravens    Thu Nov 06 2014, 06:49

I see the above loadout as bad, because while it has Nightshields (which, really means you're planning to jink) it has absolutely no weapons you could fire after jinking, invalidating the point.

I think sticking with the void lances is the way to go - they are a pretty decent anti-mech weapon on a too fragile platform for too many points, but they are still, percentage wise, the unit in our dex most likely to deal with a vehicle in one round of shooting, and that does have some value. Fly them on, drop the mine on something if you can, and then just pump out void lance shots. They are also an option for anti-air which our codex is pretty slim on. Nightshields are pretty optional to my mind, but I slightly lean as worth it as, percentage wise, it's a decent uptick to support your already steep investment, and will make them a lot more survivable against other fliers or anti-air tech.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: best use of two Voidravens    Thu Nov 06 2014, 07:18

Quote :
I see the above loadout as bad, because while it has Nightshields (which, really means you're planning to jink) it has absolutely no weapons you could fire after jinking, invalidating the point.
I dont quite agree - it gives a chance to leave battlefield and enter on another turn. As i said - i expect 2-3 turns of fire max. I just feel wastefull not taking them on a 200 points flyer, it has too much investment.

And be fair - snap shoting void lances is not an option. This flyer appear - do his job, and then it doesnt matter. Either jink and get away with chance to repeat or get destroyed.

175 points for 2 s 9 lances...ehh..nope. Doesnt bring anything unique to the army. At least with many blasts you can target clumped vehicles and disembarked squads hiding behind rhinos. Against clumped vehicles scythes are more likely to hit something then single lance and have a chance to hit more then 1 vehicle.

I know it is overcosted any way i take it, but i bought the damn thing, so i will at least use it in a most fun way i see about it.


Im still not convinced i cant drop bomb after jinking. There was disagreement on this, we'l work it up with my players.

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Last edited by Azdrubael on Thu Nov 06 2014, 11:56; edited 1 time in total
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: best use of two Voidravens    Thu Nov 06 2014, 07:23

I accidentally bought an extra box of scourge and need a voidraven. I know this is a barter post but I can't PM on the phone :/.

For clarification I was wondering if you'd take scourge as part of the payment not the whole deal of course.

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PostSubject: Re: best use of two Voidravens    Thu Nov 06 2014, 07:25

Quote :
Im still not convinced i cant drop bomb after jinking. There was disagreement on this, we'l work it up with my players.
How come? Bombing run is not shooting. Why would you not be able to drop the bomb?

„Unlike other weapons, Bombs must be used in the Movement phase of their turn, in a special kind of attack called a Bombing Run.

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PostSubject: Re: best use of two Voidravens    Thu Nov 06 2014, 08:19

Personally I run them barebone, for the simple reason that if I want to make a missile platform it would be significantly better with the Razorwing fighters.

The reason why I would use it is to be an fighter, and for that I am buying it for its lances. The bomb is something a little bit extra. At the same time if I were to jink, I really can't use the missiles and that is a rather sad fact.

Of course if you want to kill TEQ-equivalent, then the Implosion Missile is quite a cool choice to have. The Shattershard is alright, but I do not think I need a missile of that strength to kill T3-4 models.


Use them with an Autarch or Comms relay for more results.

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: best use of two Voidravens    Thu Nov 06 2014, 11:46

@ Red - on phone only, not sure how to PM (or read them anyway) . I typically shy away from Coven units as they're creepy. I know... DE are all creepy, but still. More of a Wych guy myself.

Sounds like Bomb got discussed in Rules.

Missiles almost seem like a requirement in my head due to the points. Sure, there are no base missiles, but for 40 points that is a lot of alpha strike. Then again, if I haven't opened the vehicles turn 1 I could be in trouble.

Night shields - interesting discussion. I'll probably try with and without I guess. I don't get that many games in anymore so it may be a while before I have much feedback.

Autarch/relay - would it be best (in this situation with two bombers) to have them come in staggered and potentially not both on T2?

Snap shots - yeah, snap firing on two weapons doesn't sound that great.

Thanks all for great points! Very useful! I'll put together the second bomber in a week or so and see how it does.

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PostSubject: Re: best use of two Voidravens    Thu Nov 06 2014, 13:17

I've been bringing one to a few games now, and I'd have to say that it's starting to be my new favorite unit. i play heavily against grey knights and Tau (yay me, right?) and flying on to drop an ID-ing large blast on their precious groups of paladins or farsight/suit bomb is soooo satisfying. the lances I've just been bringing as icing on the cake. against lists with no flyers, it's my "i want that thing dead" button. it's killed dreadnoughts with frag cannons, riptides, dreadknights, an invisible imperial knight, its amazing. I always drop the bomb first thing so i can focus on poimt elimination next. S9 AP2 large blast will wreck anyones day. the lances are just used in my opinion to snipe thr last hullpoint off of vehicles that are left over from my blasterborn and archon squad.
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PostSubject: Re: best use of two Voidravens    Thu Nov 06 2014, 13:20

Whenever I've run the voidraven I just ran it bare-bone with void lances. Its main purpose is anti-tank for me, so I need him to be able to do that reliably. The missiles typically aren't too useful here against tanks and therefore too expensive. Night shields I wouldn't take seeing how Skyfire ignores jinking anyhow.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: best use of two Voidravens    Thu Nov 06 2014, 13:26

@Elzadar wrote:
Night shields I wouldn't take seeing how Skyfire ignores jinking anyhow.

No it doesn't.

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PostSubject: Re: best use of two Voidravens    Thu Nov 06 2014, 13:26

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Elzadar wrote:
Night shields I wouldn't take seeing how Skyfire ignores jinking anyhow.

No it doesn't.

It doesn't? o.O

Night shields are a must then!

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PostSubject: Re: best use of two Voidravens    Thu Nov 06 2014, 14:16

@Elzadar wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Elzadar wrote:
Night shields I wouldn't take seeing how Skyfire ignores jinking anyhow.

No it doesn't.

It doesn't? o.O

Night shields are a must then!

Personally I still wouldn't. They're really only worth having if you jink and if you jink then the Voidraven may as well not be there as it can't fire missiles or (possibly) drop a bomb and will usually miss with the lances.

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PostSubject: Re: best use of two Voidravens    Thu Nov 06 2014, 14:23

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Elzadar wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Elzadar wrote:
Night shields I wouldn't take seeing how Skyfire ignores jinking anyhow.

No it doesn't.

It doesn't? o.O

Night shields are a must then!

Personally I still wouldn't. They're really only worth having if you jink and if you jink then the Voidraven may as well not be there as it can't fire missiles or (possibly) drop a bomb and will usually miss with the lances.

But it will completely save you against interceptor weapons, making you able to fire in the next turn rather than simply die.

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PostSubject: Re: best use of two Voidravens    Thu Nov 06 2014, 14:31

@Elzadar wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Elzadar wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Elzadar wrote:
Night shields I wouldn't take seeing how Skyfire ignores jinking anyhow.

No it doesn't.

It doesn't? o.O

Night shields are a must then!

Personally I still wouldn't. They're really only worth having if you jink and if you jink then the Voidraven may as well not be there as it can't fire missiles or (possibly) drop a bomb and will usually miss with the lances.

But it will completely save you against interceptor weapons, making you able to fire in the next turn rather than simply die.

Again, not so much...You move on in your turn, the enemy targets you with Interceptor fire, you Jink, you can't shoot this turn or next turn. Remember, you can only fire Snap Shots until the end of your next turn

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PostSubject: Re: best use of two Voidravens    Thu Nov 06 2014, 14:38

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Elzadar wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Elzadar wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Elzadar wrote:
Night shields I wouldn't take seeing how Skyfire ignores jinking anyhow.

No it doesn't.

It doesn't? o.O

Night shields are a must then!

Personally I still wouldn't. They're really only worth having if you jink and if you jink then the Voidraven may as well not be there as it can't fire missiles or (possibly) drop a bomb and will usually miss with the lances.

But it will completely save you against interceptor weapons, making you able to fire in the next turn rather than simply die.

Again, not so much...You move on in your turn, the enemy targets you with Interceptor fire, you Jink, you can't shoot this turn or next turn. Remember, you can only fire Snap Shots until the end of your next turn

The enemy can only intercept what is coming out of reserves, so you'll be able to fire just fine.

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PostSubject: Re: best use of two Voidravens    Thu Nov 06 2014, 14:49

@Elzadar wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Elzadar wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Elzadar wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Elzadar wrote:
Night shields I wouldn't take seeing how Skyfire ignores jinking anyhow.

No it doesn't.

It doesn't? o.O

Night shields are a must then!

Personally I still wouldn't. They're really only worth having if you jink and if you jink then the Voidraven may as well not be there as it can't fire missiles or (possibly) drop a bomb and will usually miss with the lances.

But it will completely save you against interceptor weapons, making you able to fire in the next turn rather than simply die.

Again, not so much...You move on in your turn, the enemy targets you with Interceptor fire, you Jink, you can't shoot this turn or next turn. Remember, you can only fire Snap Shots until the end of your next turn

The enemy can only intercept what is coming out of reserves, so you'll be able to fire just fine.

As all flyers start from reserve then when you turn up (turn 2 at best, 4 at worst) and jink the interceptor shots, you will be able to fire normally on turn 4 at best (turn 6 if you have poor reserve rolls), assuming you somehow survive that long.

Interceptor really is the bane of DE flyers. Sad

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PostSubject: Re: best use of two Voidravens    Thu Nov 06 2014, 15:17

@Count Adhemar wrote:
As all flyers start from reserve then when you turn up (turn 2 at best, 4 at worst) and jink the interceptor shots, you will be able to fire normally on turn 4 at best (turn 6 if you have poor reserve rolls), assuming you somehow survive that long.

Interceptor really is the bane of DE flyers. Sad

This is not true, your flyer comes in turn 2. It jinks, forcing it to snap shot during this turn. Then next turn the enemy interceptor weapons are unable to fire, so you can fire normally in turn 3.

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PostSubject: Re: best use of two Voidravens    Thu Nov 06 2014, 15:26

@Elzadar wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
As all flyers start from reserve then when you turn up (turn 2 at best, 4 at worst) and jink the interceptor shots, you will be able to fire normally on turn 4 at best (turn 6 if you have poor reserve rolls), assuming you somehow survive that long.

Interceptor really is the bane of DE flyers. Sad

This is not true, your flyer comes in turn 2. It jinks, forcing it to snap shot during this turn. Then next turn the enemy interceptor weapons are unable to fire, so you can fire normally in turn 3.

Incorrect. When you jink the rule requires you to snap fire until the end of your next turn. As you normally jink in your opponents turn then this is not too much of a problem. You snap fire in your next turn then return to normal afterwards. But when you jink in your own turn then you are forced to snap fire not only in your own shooting phase that turn but also in the shooting phase of your following turn. This is not in any way dependent on further Interceptor fire being shot at you. Your opponent can leave your flyer to its own devices for two turns as it won't be doing anything worthwhile.

So, your flyer arrives from reserve in your turn 2 and is targeted by Interceptor fire. You opt to Jink. You are now forced to snap fire until the end of your next turn, ie the end of your turn 3. You can fire normally from turn 4 onwards, assuming you don't opt to jink again.

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PostSubject: Re: best use of two Voidravens    Thu Nov 06 2014, 15:32

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Elzadar wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
As all flyers start from reserve then when you turn up (turn 2 at best, 4 at worst) and jink the interceptor shots, you will be able to fire normally on turn 4 at best (turn 6 if you have poor reserve rolls), assuming you somehow survive that long.

Interceptor really is the bane of DE flyers. Sad

This is not true, your flyer comes in turn 2. It jinks, forcing it to snap shot during this turn. Then next turn the enemy interceptor weapons are unable to fire, so you can fire normally in turn 3.

Incorrect. When you jink the rule requires you to snap fire until the end of your next turn.

Gods you're right, though you only get a cover save until the start of your next movement phase Rolling Eyes

Well your one option then is to use the bomb before the interceptor guns fire.

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PostSubject: Re: best use of two Voidravens    Mon Dec 01 2014, 03:12

Reporting back on two bombers. Please don't bring up bombing runs and jinking (either intrepretation). That is in another post.

My builds have been all anti-infantry with the shred missiles. Same load out on both bombers. I maximized other aspects of list for primary anti-tank.

All told, two bombers seems more effective than one. With two I brought an Autarch to maximize getting bombers in when I need them. Occasionally that was turn 3 instead of 2.

The bombers decimated anything it targeted. And then were left to die to return fire. However, having a bomb and missiles in the first turn of arrival allowed the bomber to target multiple units in the same turn. Having two bombers allowed redundancy and multi-targetting. Over all I would say two bombers is definitely greater than the sum. One bomber seemed not so good, two seems pretty good.

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