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 Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 14:48

@Caspaar wrote:
where is the difference between taking 1 die or rolling 4 dice at the same time.

It's not just the roll for AP. You'd need to roll to wound separately for each weapon.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 14:51

it's not the rolling for armour pen on the liquifier (which is not as simple as rolling 4 dice at once, since the templates will be covering different models, and potentially different numbers of models so the different AP becomes important) but the fact that you have to then assign different numbers of wounds into AP specific wound pools and roll them all separately (take for example a succubus with armour of misery in a unit of incubi with a haemonculus. You have three different armour saves and you would have to roll each wound pool in order to see which casualties you take)

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Caspaar
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 15:10

Ah, you're right of course. Somehow mixed up how this all works
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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 15:31

I have three-One with TL Liquifier/Heat Lance, and two with Chainflails/Heatlance. All were built with 5th and 6th Editions in mind (had them a while). Given the fairly limited AT of Coven lists I find myself using the liquifier less and less. Losing a CC attack when you are assaulting vehicles with rear AV10/11 can be a real hindrance with the way I roll dice Razz Admittedly though I don't face a lot of fearless horde infantry in my local meta, and I don't really feel that the liquifier is that reliable at S3 now.

That being said, I'm using all three today in an all Coven list alon with their Cronos buddy!

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John_the_Haemonculus
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 17:38

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
I've only got the two, but i use ichor injectors and haywire blasters.

Ichor injectors paid for themselves several times over when I instant killed a Trigon Prime, and the haywire blasters are useful for landing those early hull points on tanks that my scourges haven't quite killed (I use the Talos as a tough turn 1 board presence while I wait for my reserves).

TBE, would you still recommend this loadout in an all Coven force?

In all honesty,  I was tempted to go haywire/chain-flails until I read this post again.
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John_the_Haemonculus
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 17:41

... And bearing in mind I won't have Scourges.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 17:47

All Coven's biggest issue is facing armour. You can only take lances on raiders and outside that, all your anti tank comes from either Talos, or grotesques in combat.

If you're using Dark Artisan, I'd take a WWP and use a heat lance on the Talos (possibly a blast pistol on the Haemie as you can guarantee he'll be in range) because for one shot, the heat lance up close is your best chance to kill it in one shot, whilst hit isn't going to kill anything that's not hurt already (unless it's open topped and you're very lucky)

Everything else I'd be inclined to take haywire blasters (it is personal preference, other will say heat lance and just run the Talos until it's in range) simply because you can start damaging earlier, and that damage is far more reliable.

I'd also say don't get too excited by taking big units, mix it up. The Corpsethief is probably overkill for anything less than a landraider (although scout is useful!) but take units of two and three

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John_the_Haemonculus
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 18:12

Cheers man... You know your stuff.  Very Happy

Saying that, you've all been great help. I really appreciate the advice - it's all good.

Found this video for magnetizing Talos and Chronos. Seems appropriate to post it in here.

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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 22:43

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

possibly a blast pistol on the Haemie as you can guarantee he'll be in range

I'm pretty sure Haemonculi can't take blast pistols.

As for the Coven's lack of anti-tank, I'm considering giving all my Coven Raiders shock prows out of desperation.

Regarding Liquifiers, I feel like you'd need to roll for and resolve each liquifier one at a time the way the rule is worded.
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 23:08

@Calyptra wrote:

Regarding Liquifiers, I feel like you'd need to roll for and resolve each liquifier one at a time the way the rule is worded.
I'd say the wording is perfectly ambiguous, one could argue that you have to determine the profile of the weapons youll be firing, therefore rolling once, or one could argue that "this weapon" refers to "this instance of the weapon", therefore requiring multiple roles. This needs FAQ

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Ly'khal the Exiled
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Wed Nov 12 2014, 08:07

Actually the codex states that in the case of a unit firing multiple liquifiers, you roll them all together with one die..
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Wed Nov 12 2014, 09:17

@Ly'khal the Exiled wrote:
Actually the codex states that in the case of a unit firing multiple liquifiers, you roll them all together with one die..

I haven't seen that. Where is it?

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Wed Nov 12 2014, 09:36

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Ly'khal the Exiled wrote:
Actually the codex states that in the case of a unit firing multiple liquifiers, you roll them all together with one die..

I haven't seen that. Where is it?

I do recall reading it somewhere, but couldn't say if it was online or in the codex - don't have it with me at the mo.

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Ly'khal the Exiled
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Wed Nov 12 2014, 10:32

If I remember correctly, it's detailed at the end of the weapon's summary in the wargear section. Can't say for100% because I don't have the codex with me atm.. Other place where I think it could be detailed is at the end of the codex where all the special rules, wl traits etc. are.. But I almost swear it's in the codex
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Wed Nov 12 2014, 10:34

The only thing I've seen is this:

Quote :
* Roll for this weapon’s AP value each time it is fired, after the target has been chosen.

and I don't think that really says anything about whether to roll for all weapons at once or individually.

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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Wed Nov 12 2014, 10:45

I cant remember exactly but its probably something to discuss with your opponent. I would say for fluff each should be rolled separately as it makes more sense, but if you are really desperado for time (rolling 5 die does take a while) they could be done together. I'm still not sold on taking many liqs anyway for they are simply inferior to standard flamers at least 50% of the time not to mention their horrific cost. There are much more effective uses of those points.

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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Wed Nov 12 2014, 16:19

I don't see anything in the codex about rolling a single die for multiple liquifiers. If it's in there and I'm missing it, somebody's going to need to give a page number.

If it's not in there, the rules are clear about how to fire a single liquifier. When you firing multiple liquifiers you would therefor repeat that process multiple times, unless there is rule saying otherwise.

You wouldn't roll a single die for all your to hit or to wound rolls. Why would you roll a single die for all your liquifier AP rolls?

If the rule is buried in the fine print somewhere (I looked and couldn't find it) that would be interesting. The overall damage potential of liquifiers would go up, but the frequency of them being effective would go down, so they become more of gamble, with a higher payoff. And of course it would speed up gameplay.


Last edited by Calyptra on Wed Nov 12 2014, 19:55; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammar)
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Wed Nov 12 2014, 19:04

The nearest piece of precedent I can find is in the main rulebook on P41 where it talks about D3 or D6 amount of shots. I know this is a different thing, but it does say 'each time the MODEL shoots'.
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John_the_Haemonculus
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Wed Nov 12 2014, 19:13

Guys, for some reason I thought Urien could take a WWP, but I was obviously looking elsewhere. I had planned on DS him in with the Artisan formation, but that won't work. I guess I could attach him to a unit of Grots and another HQ with a WWP. Does anyone know what percentage of their force has to be deployed at the start of the game? It appears a lot of my plans centre around Deepstrike, so I'd best make sure I'm doing it legally.
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OutrunKoil
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Wed Nov 12 2014, 19:34

You don't have to deploy any units! Called Null deployment...

Have been toying with the idea myself. Get Scalpel Squad (2 x Wrack units in Venoms) to DS turn 1 as they have to, keeping everything else in reserve / DS...also adding Dark Artisan for some extra nastiness...having a game tomorrow, will let you know how it works out Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Wed Nov 12 2014, 21:05

That might be risky though - you still lose if you've got nothing on the table at the end of a game turn. You should be fine if you're going second, but if your opponent only has 2 paper planes and 10 wracks to face with his whole army he might wipe you if you go first.

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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Wed Nov 12 2014, 22:27

Sounds incredibly similar to a list I've used:My googledrive
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John_the_Haemonculus
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Thu Nov 13 2014, 01:00

Aye, but that's where Timatron's tactics come in. Drop multiple Scalpel squadrons in the enemy's face, then focus all the fire power at a unit and hope to gain a 3 VP lead. It sounds easy on paper, though I can also see it going horribly wrong. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Mon Nov 24 2014, 01:29

^I run this exact type of list^

2 scalpel squads, and deepstriking everything else with WWPs. If i can kill a unit, yay me, then the unit becomes my focus for Ld debuffs, tarpitting, and harassment/distraction. ALWAYS GO SECOND on Null deployment, if you want to live to T2. Also might consider going first with full deployment against drop podded blood angel dreadnought flamers/frag cannons... learned that lesson the hard way...
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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Mon Nov 24 2014, 03:22

Surely against pods you want to wait until they've done their initial drop, then get the drop on them?
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