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 Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Mon Nov 10 2014, 15:08

@John_the_Haemonculus wrote:

Ah! Brilliant. Presumably they get to fire at max salvo, too? (Still haven't got the current rules)

If I took a Scalpel Squadron,  would it not be better to start on the board and try and steal FB from range?


Vehicles always count as firing as if stationary yes, so you'll get 6 shots each at 36"

The Scalpel squadron requires you to deep strike on turn one - which at least means they're protected from Turn 1 shooting if you have to go second!

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John_the_Haemonculus
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Mon Nov 10 2014, 15:17

Now I've got you. In that respect, I get the train of thought behind both of those loadouts. I still think I'd prefer double Cannon, Ossefactor and Hex. If I can keep the enemy at range, and still unload a decent amount of shots, it keeps our fragile armour away from rapid firing weapons I guess. That said, if I knew I was playing Tau, I'd probably switch out the Hexrifles for Liquifiers - those pathfinders can be quite pesky. Haha.
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Mon Nov 10 2014, 15:25

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Calyptra made a very similar point to how I think about Hexrifles. If I'm gonna take Wracks in Venoms it might as well be as a scalpel squadron, it's a no-lose scenario basically. The range of the hex rifle synergises with the splinter cannons, and since their formation rules make it a great idea to shoot with them as early in the game as possible, having an extra shot doesn't seem like a bad idea - it's not like it's taking away a gun they might use differently!

Personally I don't find the Hexrifle to be worthwhile as AP4 makes no difference to the majority of my opponents (bloody 3+ saves!) and the special effects rarely actually do anything (basically a <3% chance of ID on something with a 3+ save). I therefore try to keep Wrack units cheap with just the Ossefactor.

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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Mon Nov 10 2014, 16:19

Any thoughts on Haemomculus loadouts, guys?
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Mon Nov 10 2014, 18:32

@John_the_Haemonculus wrote:
Any thoughts on Haemomculus loadouts, guys?

I really really don't know what to think of haemy choices, but I'd say scissorhand or nothing, maybe a relic in the supplement but haven't gone round to using those

As for wracks:
In scalpel squadron: Liquifiers, drop + disembark is enough usually
Outside: Haven't tried them without SS, but they seem really meh, maybe a min squad on an objective?
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Mon Nov 10 2014, 19:37

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Calyptra made a very similar point to how I think about Hexrifles. If I'm gonna take Wracks in Venoms it might as well be as a scalpel squadron, it's a no-lose scenario basically. The range of the hex rifle synergises with the splinter cannons, and since their formation rules make it a great idea to shoot with them as early in the game as possible, having an extra shot doesn't seem like a bad idea - it's not like it's taking away a gun they might use differently!

Personally I don't find the Hexrifle to be worthwhile as AP4 makes no difference to the majority of my opponents (bloody 3+ saves!) and the special effects rarely actually do anything (basically a <3% chance of ID on something with a 3+ save). I therefore try to keep Wrack units cheap with just the Ossefactor.

Would you bother with the Acothyst, in that case?
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Mon Nov 10 2014, 19:48

Please note that all my thoughts are theoryhammered rather than from practical experience.

If the Haemonculus is going in a unit that is trying to maximize liquifiers, I'd say give him a liquifier. Otherwise, I'd go with a pair of stinger pistols.

Does anyone think it ever makes sense to give a Haemonculus a hex rifle?

I think the scissorhand is probably the best melee weapon for the points, though situationally, there may be times when a flesh gauntlet wouldn't be a bad idea. The mindphase gauntlet is awful, and the agonizer is so expensive that I'm having trouble justifying it.

The Crucible of Malediction does not do what it says on the label, in that it will probably not hurt any actual psykers, but will instead knock off their escorts. I would be very interested to see somebody put together a list of likely units containing psykers in various armies. For example, if that Librarian is in a unit of terminators or veterans, the Crucible is probably worth it, but not if he's hanging out in a tactical squad. Seer Council? Definitely worth it. Guardians with Warlocks, not so much. Also, there's a chance your opponent won't have any psykers at all.

I think Syndriq's Sump would be a good buy in two situations: if your Haemonculus is accompanying a non-Coven unit, in which case he would benefit from Fleet; and if he is in a small unit that is likely to see melee, such as a Dark Artisan formation, where Rampage will be useful.

I feel like the Vexator Mask probably isn't worth it. The Orbs of Despair are certainly not worth it.

The Haemovores will give you an extra pile in move, though I'm not quite certain how that would be useful, and a bunch of probably inefectual attacks, but... they're cheap, and fun, and make sense if you're using a model converted from Urien. I'll probably take them, but not because they're good.

I think the Panacea and the Doll are interesting. They're probably overpriced for what they do. In the flavor, Haemonculi are exceptionally hard to "kill." In game terms, they've just got T4, Feel no Pain, and It Will Not Die on turn 3. These items (and proximity to a Cronos) are their only options to increase their survivability, and I like that their survivability is increased in a uniquely Haemonculus way. (I believe that since the Doll grants +1 to the FnP roll rather than changing the target number, the Doll plus a Cronos would mean an effective 3+ FnP. I haven't seen this discussed yet, so I might be wrong.)

I'm not sure we really want more survivable Haemonculi. They're hardly combat monsters. We want them for webway portals, Master of Pain, and possibly a Crucible. By midgame Master of Pain becomes less important and the Crucible has likely been used. If you end up with Master Epicurean, having a more survivable Haemonculus may actually run counter to your goal of dying in a suitably stimulating and entertaining manner.

That said, if I can spare the points, I will probably always give my Haemonculi both the Panacea and the Doll (though not to the same Haemonculus) for one very important reason: I think Haemonculi are awesome, and their continued presence on the table increases my enjoyment of the game.

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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Mon Nov 10 2014, 20:09

For outfitting the coven Haemonculus, I would say it depends a lot on what the Haemonculus is with.

Until the (hopeful) FAQ, the Orbs are worthless. The Panacea, Doll, and Sump are all potential, all purpose items that can be used.

One that I have been looking at a bit more though is the Vexator Mask. At first thought, it's crap as it's only in challenges and it causes an Initiative Penalty - however, that's actually a GOOD thing. Most coven are I4 and not faster like other units from the Kabal and Cult lists so being able to have your opponent's character swing after you is a good thing. Add in the fact that excess outside hits bleed over into the challenge (and vise versa) means that ensuring your opponent's character going last could allow your outside attacks to reap havoc on him. Dark Artisan or just joined to a unit of Incubi from another detachment and you have a powerful outside force that can generate enough wounds through the entire unit. GW puts a lot of value on Initiative but this is a situation where I think it could be very beneficial.
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Mon Nov 10 2014, 22:17

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
BONESPLOSION! My favourite new word.


EDIT - I nominate ESE to use the word Bonesplosion in the next episode of Splintermind!


Damn! I found this one day too late. (We recorded yesterday) Rest assured episode 6 will absolutely feature a " BONESPLOSION!" Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 08:55

How have you Coven-folks knitted out your Taloi? I built 3 but I'm having second thoughts on their load-out (currently all of them pack heat lances and liquifiers). Points-wise or not, feedback is welcome.
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 09:12

I've only got the two, but i use ichor injectors and haywire blasters.

Ichor injectors paid for themselves several times over when I instant killed a Trigon Prime, and the haywire blasters are useful for landing those early hull points on tanks that my scourges haven't quite killed (I use the Talos as a tough turn 1 board presence while I wait for my reserves).

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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 09:54

@Burning Eye, thanks for the tactic sneak peek.

I also planned to field them as T1 presence that would be difficult to remove (I've also built 1 Cronos to boost their FnP). I have to admit I'm not that big fan of the HWB, neither on Taloi or Scourges. Sure they are superb when it comes to score those hull points off but they're not useful anywhere else.. Blasters on scourges/heat lances on Taloi for the higher strength, so I can use them when there's no armour on the table (I like to build my lists/units to be as versatile as I can).

Also when it comes to Talos, I think the HWB sets up a bait on the Talos itself, giving you a too easy option to fire at longer range, where heat lance forces you to move closer to your enemy (and that's where I want them to be in the end).

What about the other wpn option? I'm so sad I can't take both liquifier AND injector.. I know how good the latter is to get rid of any opposing monsters but I tend to compensate that loss with field a full unit. 3 tl liquifiers also give me a punch against any tarpitting infantry blobs. But yeah, both have their appeal for me.. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 10:46

I know what you're saying but S4 AP4 isn't bad (though I concede it's not good either) if the haywire blaster hasn't got a target.

In my experience though, there's little shortage of targets on turn 1 for haywire blasters (meta dependant obviously) except against tyranids. For me it's about when I want to be doing something specific - I want my anti tank shooting to be early in the game, breaking open transports and forcing transported units into footslogging. Heat lances are fine but on a Talos they're not likely to get double dice to pen until turn 3 at the earliest, and not at all if my opponent is smart about it (any vehicle can at least stay away from a Talos).

I then like to mix blasters/dark lances and haywire blasters - the haywire blaster is far more reliable at stripping hull points (same chance to hit, much more likely to cause a glance even against AV10) with dark light shots in there to potentially destroy or cause snap firing etc. As an example, a game I played recently my scourges and a talos took down pask in one turn, whereas 6+ dark lances failed to kill his squadron buddy.

Once their job is done, scourges with haywire blasters are still useful mobile (and probably by then fearless) objective grabbers. Generally speaking my lances are targeted early by my opponents.

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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 13:05

In a pure Coven force, I think you have to go with haywire blasters on Talos, because you need every scrap of anti-tank you can get.

Ichor injectors are great. It's worth noting that chain flails are the better anti-infantry option, in addition to being cheaper, so in very small games that might be the better choice. Otherwise, inject that ichor.

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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 13:11

Agreed on the Haywire Blasters. From my own painfull experience, a pure coven list really struggles with AT. You need to get as much shots on those stupid Tanks as possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 13:14

Recalling correctly, LG's could only be taken by a single model in a unit of grots in the previous dex, they can now be taken by them all. due to the lower strength, they are better used when making high numbers of hits.

I am of the impression that they are there as a protection method for Grots. with their low armour and no AP, grots can struggle to kill well armoured opponents, the LG gives them an opportunity to knock down some of the incoming attacks.

That is the LG's purpose now, becasue as everyone states, they have gotten worse.

The other day a unit of 4 grots with a haemonc LGunnned a charging unit og terminators, 14 hits, rolled a dirty 1 for the AP, and hey presto, full terminator unit dead!! the next turn they rolled another 1 for AP, and took 3 termies out of the equation.

so although they are worse than they were, and i dont personally think they have a function on wracks any longer, they are a fantastic way of evening up a fight between 2+ armour and our big hitting, but ultimately non armour penetrating grots!!

just my thoughts anyway

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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 13:26

Quick rule question: I always thought you'd role the AP seperatly for each Liquifier gun
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 13:33

I have no idea, My group always rolls those kind of things together in order to save time. if that isnt the case then on this occaision, oops

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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 13:33

Great notes!

I think I'll still stick with my liquifier however.. The bigger problem for me would probably be the endless swarm of infantry rather than a monster I cant win without the injectors. Also, I was thinking that with Grots' flesh gauntlets you could also pull off that "let's go hunt some trygons!" -trick. Lets remember that your opponent only needs to fail that ONE saving throw, which should usually happen, considering that a majority of monsters have 3+ armour save. So although the injector intriques me, I'll leave it be (for now..)
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 13:39

@Caspaar wrote:
Quick rule question: I always thought you'd role the AP seperatly for each Liquifier gun

I was under the same impression. Oh well, hard lines for those Terminators. Hehe
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 14:00

@John_the_Haemonculus wrote:
@Caspaar wrote:
Quick rule question: I always thought you'd role the AP seperatly for each Liquifier gun

I was under the same impression. Oh well, hard lines for those Terminators.  Hehe

I think I remember reading somewhere that they're now rolled all together. Can't remember where though.

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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 14:05

Hm, that would be a shame.
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 14:10

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@John_the_Haemonculus wrote:
@Caspaar wrote:
Quick rule question: I always thought you'd role the AP seperatly for each Liquifier gun

I was under the same impression. Oh well, hard lines for those Terminators.  Hehe

I think I remember reading somewhere that they're now rolled all together. Can't remember where though.

Either way, Terminators deserve to die to Overwatch... Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 14:33

I think it's another of those time saving rolls, like how the shadowfield can now all be rolled at once, and why they FAQ'd bladevane attacks to not be random allocation (eventually)

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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Tue Nov 11 2014, 14:41

Meh, they become much less reliant that way.....where is the difference between taking 1 die or rolling 4 dice at the same time. I get how the new shadow field saves time, but it doesnt make sense for the Liquifiers
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