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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Thu Nov 06 2014, 16:08

@Calyptra wrote:
I want to take ten Wracks with three liquifiers and a Haemonculus with a liquifier and webway them into position and yell, "Who wants to drink from the fire hose!?" But that will likely only kill two marines, and then I'm the guy who shouts and waves templates over his head for no reason.

Oh now I've got a real picture in my head! lol!

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John_the_Haemonculus
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Thu Nov 06 2014, 17:26

EPIC FAIL lol!
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John_the_Haemonculus
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Thu Nov 06 2014, 17:30

But in all seriousness, I totally see your point. If you're playing marines week in week out what other shooting options are there? I always find this problem whenever I run a fluffy army. I guess it's the price we pay being purists. Haha
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Thu Nov 06 2014, 22:27

@Calyptra wrote:
There's a lot of love for liquifiers here. Can someone explain why they're worth taking now? Only wounding marines on 5+ before rolling the variable AP seems like it won't accomplish much. For example, two liquifiers firing and hitting three marines apiece will only kill a single marine.

Wracks and Grotesques have an incredibly high potential for damage-dealt-per-point-spent because of liquifiers, even with an "average" AP roll. This potential is possible to exceed an equally costed Incubi unit going against MEQ.

However, optimal circumstances are few and far between, so I don't really see the hype for it either.
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Thu Nov 06 2014, 22:37

@John_the_Haemonculus wrote:
If a unit is positioned well multiple hits with templates can still be potentially devastating, even at 5+ to wound. If you look at the cost of the liquifier and compare that to the cost one marine, you only need to pop one and its already payed for itself.  Besides, looking around the tables at my local games club, there's a lot more xenos armies kicking around; many of which with T3 profiles.

Not necessarily. You have to factor in the cost it takes to get a liquifier. It costs 52 points to get a single liquifier per Wrack unit. Taking 10 Wracks with 3 liquifiers is 155 pts. So in reality, a liquifier really has to kill around 2-3 marines for it to pay itself off.

Similarly, you wouldn't justify taking Dark Lances on a Ravager because it "only has to kill 5 pts to pay off each lance."

@Calyptra wrote:
I only get to fight marines these days. :-/
Yes, if a liquifier kills a single marine, it pays for the gun (though not the guy holding it). The problem is, a liquifier isn't likely to kill a single marine.

It seems like a lot of points to spend on gambling on an ideal situation or a turn of really good dice.

Also, I don't know if I can get over the fact that a flamer is better than a liquifier and ten points cheaper.

I really want someone to change my mind on this, because I love liquifiers, and I want to keep using them. I want to take ten Wracks with three liquifiers and a Haemonculus with a liquifier and webway them into position and yell, "Who wants to drink from the fire hose!?" But that will likely only kill two marines, and then I'm the guy who shouts and waves templates over his head for no reason.

If you have to take Wracks, Liquifiers are arguably their best upgrade. Sold?

@John_the_Haemonculus wrote:
But in all seriousness,  I totally see your point. If you're playing marines week in week out what other shooting options are there? I always find this problem whenever I run a fluffy army. I guess it's the price we pay being purists.  Haha

There are plenty of options for taking out MEQ in the Dark Eldar codex, and don't ever let an MEQ player hear you say that. It just so happens that Liquifiers aren't the best option for doing so.
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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Fri Nov 07 2014, 03:51

@Khordajj wrote:


If you have to take Wracks, Liquifiers are arguably their best upgrade. Sold?


Why do you think liquifiers are better than ossefactors? The ossefactor has the downside of periodically missing, but it will kill almost a marine every turn, maybe more if you roll well for the calcific spears. You can also gun down terminators and hurt monstrous creatures. With the spears you're likely to get equivalent or higher body counts against low armor targets, like Orks or Guard. The only times I can think of when you'd rather have the liquifier are when firing overwatch, or when facing low toughness, high armor infantry, like Sisters. Am I missing something?
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Fri Nov 07 2014, 06:21

Of course dark eldar have tons of ways to deal with Marines. I think the OP thought about sth like a Coven-List where Liquifiers are one of the few ways to get low AP (at least statistically).
I agree that the Ossefactor os a better weapon pee se, but the Acothyst amd grots cant take it, so i equip those with Liquifiers
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Fri Nov 07 2014, 07:55

@Calyptra wrote:
Why do you think liquifiers are better than ossefactors? The ossefactor has the downside of periodically missing, but it will kill almost a marine every turn, maybe more if you roll well for the calcific spears. You can also gun down terminators and hurt monstrous creatures. With the spears you're likely to get equivalent or higher body counts against low armor targets, like Orks or Guard. The only times I can think of when you'd rather have the liquifier are when firing overwatch, or when facing low toughness, high armor infantry, like Sisters. Am I missing something?

10 Wracks can carry 2 Ossefactors. On average this will kill 2.11 marines, 1.72 terminators, and 2.89 guardsmen.

If we don't even factor in the random AP roll, for 10 Wracks with 3 Liquifiers to deal the same amount of damage they need to hit (each), 6 marines, 10 terminators, and 2 gaurdsmen. This can represent atrocious AP rolls.

After we factor in the random AP roll, to do the same amount of damage you only need to hit (per liquifier) 3 marines, 5 terminators, and 1.58 guardsmen. This represents statistical AP rolls.

In most cases, you are likely going to be able to hit more than the "Ossefactor minimum" to deal more damage.

Granted, the total cost for taking 3 liquifiers is 25 pts more expensive than taking 2 Ossefactors, but the cost of the Liquifier is cheaper than the Ossefactor per the overall cost of the unit. An Ossefactor costs 65 points, whereas a Liquifier costs 51.6 pts.

Of course, how effective a unit is depends on how you use it, but using the Ossefactor in a manner to make it better than the Liquifier is backwards thinking in my opinion. For instance if you say, "The Ossefactor is likely going to be in range before Liquifiers, therefore I'll spend a turn moving my Raiders at combat speed so the Ossefactor has more turns to shoot," then you're really just denying yourself taking a more effective unit such as Kabalites which perform the same roll.

I wouldn't advocate taking Liquifiers unless you're taking 3 per unit, and I wouldn't take them in anything outside of a transport unless its doing some sort of deep strike.

So for instance if you're putting Wracks inside a Venom, then I would take an Ossefactor, or if you're footslogging them.

I could be wrong, but this is how I see it.
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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Fri Nov 07 2014, 10:14

I think our maths don't quite line up. That's not surprising, in that I have never claimed to be good at maths.
Here's my logic: the ossefactor is an excellent gun at making that guy very dead. Once that guy has bonesploded (note that another advantage to the ossefactor is that you get to use the word "bonesploded"), his unit takes D6 hits, probably at S 3 or 4. D6 seems like a number probably close to, and possibly in excess of, how many models you'd reasonably be able to get with a liquifier template; you'll be just as likely to wound at T3 and causing more wounds at T4. With your bonesplosion.

@Khordajj wrote:

Granted, the total cost for taking 3 liquifiers is 25 pts more expensive than taking 2 Ossefactors, but the cost of the Liquifier is cheaper than the Ossefactor per the overall cost of the unit. An Ossefactor costs 65 points, whereas a Liquifier costs 51.6 pts.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

@Khordajj wrote:

Of course, how effective a unit is depends on how you use it, but using the Ossefactor in a manner to make it better than the Liquifier is backwards thinking in my opinion. For instance if you say, "The Ossefactor is likely going to be in range before Liquifiers, therefore I'll spend a turn moving my Raiders at combat speed so the Ossefactor has more turns to shoot," then you're really just denying yourself taking a more effective unit such as Kabalites which perform the same roll.

While that's true, if you're running a Covenite army, the Kabalites are off the table.

@Khordajj wrote:

I wouldn't advocate taking Liquifiers unless you're taking 3 per unit, and I wouldn't take them in anything outside of a transport unless its doing some sort of deep strike.

So for instance if you're putting Wracks inside a Venom, then I would take an Ossefactor, or if you're footslogging them.

I could be wrong, but this is how I see it.

We agree on a lot here. 5 Wracks in a Venom with an ossefactor and maybe a hex rifle makes a nice little covenite unit that can deploy on objectives and provide fire support. 10 Wracks who are going to spend a lot of time assaulting and being assaulted by things might prefer liquifiers.

I'm honestly theoryhammering quite a bit here, and liquifiers present a lot of variables. You've convinced me that I should try out a liquidy Wrack cell and see how they do.
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Fri Nov 07 2014, 10:32

BONESPLOSION! My favourite new word.

Back on topic though, certain weapons will be better at certain things than others, it's why I don't like to rely solely on math/theoryhammer.

Scalpel squadrons for example work best with an ossefactor and hexrifle, because you can't guarantee being inside template range. Liquifiers probably work best as an assualt discouraging unit, or a unit to flush an opponent out of cover.

My biggest issue with the liquifier is not the low strength, it's the variable AP. In a game that's already random enough, the last thing i want to do is to put a unit into position to bring the pain onto an enemy only to find that I'm not actually doing very much damage because I've had a poor AP roll (or conversely, I'm paying over the odds for a weapon to have the potential to hurt 2+ armoured troops but I have to use it on guardsmen because I'm not playing against deathwing).

As such, if I want templates in my army I'd look no further than medusae (with the added advantage that they can be made to count as T5) - sure they're not and can never be AP2, but because that's not variable I can plan accordingly (by taking lances or dissies).

I genuinely can't see me taking liquifiers in a game for that reason.

EDIT - I nominate ESE to use the word Bonesplosion in the next episode of Splintermind!

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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Fri Nov 07 2014, 18:43

Is the question are liquifiers worth using with wracks? Or is the question are Liquifiers worth using at all?

Because I love Liquifiers on Grotesques, Haemis, and Deep Striking Talos (Dark Artisan formation).

Not a huge fan of them on Wracks. Actually not a fan of wracks.

Comparing Liquifer to Imperial Flamers has little meaning. We can't use flamers, so its a moot point. Even if we pay more and ours has lower strength doesn't make ours worthless. In reality a Str 3 Ap D6 flamer is good, especially since we can take them in high numbers. Flamers for most armies are 1 per unit and most characters can't take them.

Flamers Ignore cover, can wall of fire, can burn out models in buildings and/or open topped vehicles, auto hit, and almost always hit 2+ models per shot.

Dark Artisan can have 3 flamers, one which is twin linked. Grotesque can each have one, plus their Haemi (I usually only take two on Grots, and 1 on Haemi).

So subject at hand if I was going to take Wracks?

Scalpel formation as many have said Ossefactor/Hexrifle seems best.

Webway Portaling 3 Liquifiers in a raider sounds fun (Haemi Liquifier, webway + Accothyst liquifier + 4-8 wracks with a liquifer) Umph, thought you could do this in a venom, but alas 5 man minimum wrack units.








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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Sat Nov 08 2014, 00:56

Seems to be some differing opinions here.

To be honest, the only reason I decided to dabble with Dark Eldar at all was because of the Coven stuff. I really like the entire range of Dark Eldar figures, but the fluff surrounding the Haemonculi and their acolytes appeals more than Kabals or Wych Cults. Its something I've wanted to do for a long time, but was put off mainly due to the poor quality of Fincast. (Sifting through bent weapons just wasn't fun at all.)

So, although they may not be the best choice the Codex has to offer, or have the best weapon options, my heart is set on building a Coven army. After taking on board what you've all said I think I'll run smaller units on Venoms with an Ossefactor, and spam Liquifiers in larger squads embarked on Raiders. I'd much rather be assaulting the enemy after they've had a face full of burn, so I think I might stick with that plan. Very Happy



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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Sat Nov 08 2014, 01:51

I've got a little series on some of the Covens formations if you're interested John:
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Sat Nov 08 2014, 02:00

@Calyptra wrote:

@Khordajj wrote:

Granted, the total cost for taking 3 liquifiers is 25 pts more expensive than taking 2 Ossefactors, but the cost of the Liquifier is cheaper than the Ossefactor per the overall cost of the unit. An Ossefactor costs 65 points, whereas a Liquifier costs 51.6 pts.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

10 Wracks can take a total of 3 Liquifier guns for 155 pts. 10 Wracks can take 2 Ossefactors for 130 points. Although taking a full squad of Liquifiers is 25 points more expensive than a squad full of Ossefactors, the overall cost of the unit divided by the number of guns means that Liquifiers are slightly cheaper than Ossefactors. (155/3 vs 130/2) = (51.6 vs 65).

I'm only saying it's more expensive to take Ossefactors in the long run. If you wanted to take 6 Ossefactors, it would cost 390 points, but if you wanted to take 6 Liquifier guns it would only cost 310 points.
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Sat Nov 08 2014, 19:47

Thanks, Timatron. I'll watch it now. :-)
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Sat Nov 08 2014, 20:32

Great video! You've definitely given me some food for thought.
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Sat Nov 08 2014, 20:37

Has anyone tried liquifiers on Taloi? Being twin-linked, the bite on the wpn's strength would balance out abit (in my mind at least).
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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Sun Nov 09 2014, 16:07

Always
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Sun Nov 09 2014, 18:07

A question regarding the Scalpel Squadron: I've heard many people suggest to take Ossefactors and Hexrife Acothysts on both squads, and while I agree on the Ossefactor, I'm not sold on the Hexrifle. Why would you use it? If I'm reading things correctly, it has gotten so much worse than its previous incarnation, what with the Instant Death on Precision Hits. It was lackluster before, but now? Is it worth it paying 40 extra points just to have these two measly shots?

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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Sun Nov 09 2014, 23:16

I'm not a fan of sinking too many points into scalpels, because of the nature of how I am utilising them; distractions to present targets in my opponents face. Keep them at around 230 per formation, take two of them and disembark to present 8 targets in your opponent's face T1, protecting the advance of the rest of your coven.
So no, I wouldn't personally.
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Mon Nov 10 2014, 01:57

I'm not sure about hex rifles, but right now I'm leaning towards taking them in 5-strong units on venoms. That is not a unit that wants to assault. That is a unit which wants to sit on an objective and shoot things. The hex rifle doubles the number of shots it will generate per turn, with a small chance of causing instant death, and a small, unrelated chance of being AP2.

Yes, you're probably paying an extra 20 points for a single 36" AP4 assault 1 shot that wounds on a 4+, which isn't nothing, but isn't spectacular either. (It's better than a haemonculus poking you in the eye with a stick.) Alternatively, if you don't take it, you've spent 10 points on a guy who's likely to do nothing at all, turn after turn.

Basically, I worry about my Wracks getting bored.

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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Mon Nov 10 2014, 14:17

I'd say I'm probably gonna do the same.

Is anyone else running Acothysts with Hex to good effect, or just leaving their Acothysts flat?

What's the general consensus for upgrading Haemonculi this ed? Are there any interesting builds doing the rounds?

Also, am I right in thinking Venoms come with a twin-linked splinter rifle AND a splinter cannon, with the option to take a second cannon?
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Mon Nov 10 2014, 14:26

Yes John, the twin linked splinter rifle and single splinter cannon is the basic loadout. I doubt you'll ever see them without dual splinter cannons though!

Calyptra made a very similar point to how I think about Hexrifles. If I'm gonna take Wracks in Venoms it might as well be as a scalpel squadron, it's a no-lose scenario basically. The range of the hex rifle synergises with the splinter cannons, and since their formation rules make it a great idea to shoot with them as early in the game as possible, having an extra shot doesn't seem like a bad idea - it's not like it's taking away a gun they might use differently!

In terms of coven, I think their biggest issue is dealing with armour, even more so than the rest of our army since they can't bring ravagers or razorwings (assuming you're using the covenite coterie detachment here)

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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Mon Nov 10 2014, 14:50

For the last couple of games I've dropped in 2 Scalpel Squadrons with liquifiers and ossefactors in each boat, and I am THOROUGHLY impressed. It allows me to target whatever I want with whatever drops near. "oh I scattered away from my target?" disembark closer, or try to deepstrike again. The venom that scattered can target something else then.

I run full null deployment, and always take T2 when I can. My main enemies are Tau (ususally with many pathfinders), Grey Knights T1 Deepstriking from their Nemesis Strike Formation, and Blood Angels (whom I have yet to beat, actually... frickin Imperial knight). I use the Scalpel Squads to drop in my opponent's face so that they freak out. the grey knights player will either drop his terminators across the field on objectives or hold them until T2, where he will counter deepstrike near my Scalpels (right where I want them) so he will footslog them. That, or Drop Podded Blood Angel Dreadnaughts of 3 flamers of DOOM burn the venoms alive the first chance they get, then my force deepstrikes FAAAAR away from them.

The glory of having the liq and oss is that they can target anything in any army without tailoring. pathfinders? liquified. Riptides? Ossefactored and poisoned from a distance. Deepstrikers in reserve? plop next to the rest of his force and watch him panic.
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PostSubject: Re: Help with Best Wracks Hacks And General Coven Advice.    Mon Nov 10 2014, 15:04

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Yes John, the twin linked splinter rifle and single splinter cannon is the basic loadout. I doubt you'll ever see them without dual splinter cannons though!

Calyptra made a very similar point to how I think about Hexrifles. If I'm gonna take Wracks in Venoms it might as well be as a scalpel squadron, it's a no-lose scenario basically. The range of the hex rifle synergises with the splinter cannons, and since their formation rules make it a great idea to shoot with them as early in the game as possible, having an extra shot doesn't seem like a bad idea - it's not like it's taking away a gun they might use differently!

In terms of coven, I think their biggest issue is dealing with armour, even more so than the rest of our army since they can't bring ravagers or razorwings (assuming you're using the covenite coterie detachment here)

Ah! Brilliant. Presumably they get to fire at max salvo, too? (Still haven't got the current rules)

If I took a Scalpel Squadron, would it not be better to start on the board and try and steal FB from range?

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