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ShamPow1999
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PostSubject: Kabalite Warriors   Kabalite Warriors I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 03 2014, 00:55

In a recent game I played where I used 3 squads of 10 Kabalite Warriors in Raiders w/ Splinter Racks and a Dark Lance I was thoroughly impressed with their shot output. On the first turn of the game, their Raiders shot their one Dark Lance each immobilizing two of my opponents Space Marine vehicles. The rest of the game they just sat in their jinking transports annihilating 1 squad of Tactical Marines, 1 squad of Legion of the Damned and damaging a unit of Sternguard ... until turn 4 when they charged with their Wych rivaling 30 S4 attacks (thanks to whoever pointed that out first!).

I didn't realize how amazing PfP actually was until it was turn 6 and I got extremely lucky wrecking a Stalker with 5 Warriors. Last codex I used a lot of 5 man squads with a Blaster in a Venom but I much rather prefer this set up; it gives you a cheap gunboat which fires a jaw-dropping amount of shots, a 10 man strong unit which will become fearless by the end of the game (assuming they live), and a long-range lance shot which I find much better than a Blaster.

Obviously this set-up will die horribly to any unit which has a flamer template as will most units in the army which is why I was wondering if there would be any way you would improve this unit. Specifically, how would you play them as to avoid flamers (drop pod, in a transport, etc.)? Of course when using three dedicated anti-infantry units it is important to have spare anti-tank else where; what units would be best for this? Lastly, what units do you use as your troop choices in general (I'm not sure if there is something even better than this)?

Thnx! Advice is appreciated! Smile
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Animus12
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalite Warriors   Kabalite Warriors I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 03 2014, 05:17

5 man scourges with HWB are dirt cheap and seem to be the new goto for AT. Reavers with HL cannot be counted out and are rightly feared by anyone having experience against them. Most of my gaming group target them first (which can be either good or bad depending). Blasterborn are always a staple, but I think they will be seeing slightly less use due to coven supplement goodness. Razorwings are kind of a mediocre choice, but I have always had good luck with them. And we can't forget the talos armed pretty much however you want.

As for avoiding flamers, I used to run the Duke specifically for deep-strike shenanigans. While he may have dropped into a wormhole and been erased from the timeline, the tactic is still sound, especially if you can go second.

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PostSubject: Re: Kabalite Warriors   Kabalite Warriors I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 03 2014, 05:39

@ShamPow1999 wrote:

Obviously this set-up will die horribly to any unit which has a flamer template as will most units in the army which is why I was wondering if there would be any way you would improve this unit. Specifically, how would you play them as to avoid flamers (drop pod, in a transport, etc.)? Of course when using three dedicated anti-infantry units it is important to have spare anti-tank else where; what units would be best for this? Lastly, what units do you use as your troop choices in general (I'm not sure if there is something even better than this)?

Thnx! Advice is appreciated! Smile

Generally how I kill flamer-armed models;

1) Infantry: Angle myself to such an extent that the first model to die under my shooting/assault will be the flamer-armed model. If the model is not the first, he should be the one next in line to die.

2) Vehicle: Shoot it to death

3) Drop Pod: Deploy closer to table edges and also make anti-deepstrike bubbles.


For general anti-tank duties, these days I rely a lot on Scourges, Blasterborns, Razorwings, Reavers, Ravager and Taloi depending upon my list for the day. Nonetheless, each one of them have their own peculiar way of using their anti-tank weapon and thus warrants a little bit of though when you include them into your list.

Lastly, I have always been a Kabal-heavy person, so I generally use Kabalite warriors. Whether it is a 5 man squad with a blaster in a Venom or 10 man squad in a raider, I am open to all. Wyches used to be in my list only because my Archon needs a bodyguard, and later in 6th as a throwaway anti-tank unit.

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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalite Warriors   Kabalite Warriors I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 03 2014, 08:12

@ShamPow1999 wrote:
until turn 4 when they charged with their Wych rivaling 30 S4 attacks...
Umm... I get how this can happen Turn 6+, with Rage, but how are you getting it Turn 4?

Generally speaking though I agree with everything you're saying. Gunboats were my Go-To last edition, and now in 7th once I'm done experimenting with all the shiny new stuff that sucks points out of my troop slots, I'll be going back to them.
From the sound of it you don't use Night Shields on your gunboats? And no special/heavy weapon in the Kabbies?

I played against a Drop-Flamer heavy army today (see my batrep HERE) and learned wo effective way to negate some of the impact of fast moving flamers. Neither of which I employed lol. I learned the hard way.

Firstly, spread out your units. NEVER let them hit multiple transports with their templates. Serious no-no, and it's tough sometimes 'cause those templates are longer than you expect unless you're thinking about them.
Second, and probably more effectively; if your transports full of infantry are kept in DS reserve, not only can he not target you with drop-pod flamers, but you can DS your gunboats across the map or just on the edge of their range and kite or avoid the flame-bearing enemy infantry all day long.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalite Warriors   Kabalite Warriors I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 03 2014, 08:59

If you're playing against marines, don't forget that drop pods can't move, so a valid tactic is to not DS, but just normal reserve, the drop pods will largely be in your own dz so you can enter play without worrying about scatter and still be in range.

You need to declare normal reserve before the game starts though!

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PostSubject: Re: Kabalite Warriors   Kabalite Warriors I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 03 2014, 19:33

@Laughingcarp wrote:
@ShamPow1999 wrote:
until turn 4 when they charged with their Wych rivaling 30 S4 attacks...
Umm... I get how this can happen Turn 6+, with Rage, but how are you getting it Turn 4?

Animus Vitae + Haemonculus?
Animus Vitae + Archon in the formation?
Archon + Haemonculus in the formation?
...cheating?

lets assume it was one of options A through C...
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Its_Rumble
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalite Warriors   Kabalite Warriors I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 03 2014, 19:51

Quote :

Animus Vitae + Haemonculus?
Animus Vitae + Archon in the formation?
Archon + Haemonculus in the formation?
...cheating?

lets assume it was one of options A through C...


Only one of each artifact can be chosen per army. So you can't have two Animus Vitae

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PostSubject: Re: Kabalite Warriors   Kabalite Warriors I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 03 2014, 20:48

Rumble I think he meant it was one of those options, not all. But yeah I'm still not sure how, since he's talking about 10 kabbies in a unit, presumably in a Raider, so no room for a Haemy.

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PostSubject: Re: Kabalite Warriors   Kabalite Warriors I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 03 2014, 21:03

could also be 9 w/ a sybarite w/ CCW + pistol (can they still take that loadout? I'd never pay for a champion in a shooting squad so I've never looked), ends up being 29 attacks which is ALMOST 30=)

Regardless.

I would caution that a one-off "I got amazingly lucky" experience shouldn't colour your perception about how wonderful kabalite warriors are in close combat.... I'd suggest that's still a last ditch effort unless you're against some unsupported guard/fire warriors/grots...
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalite Warriors   Kabalite Warriors I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 03 2014, 21:43

Ahahaha I meant turn 6. Sorry for any confusion, kinda let my insanity show through a bit. On turn 4they would not have Rage.

Thanks to whoever pointed out taking a heavy weapon or night shields; unfortunately I don't think spending 195 points on a troop unit, especially as fragile as ours is a good idea. A Raider with DL, SR and NS clocks in at 90 points and provides your Warriors with a spare dark lance for busting open vehicles, super awesome shooting re rolls and some survivability. However it is still an Armor value 10 Open Topped vehicle which can be glanced to death by Bolters. IMO not the best idea.

On the other hand taking a heavy weapon would be useful as it increases the potential range our Warriors have to 36 rather than 24. The only problem I see myself having is finding what I can remove to add then to my list.

On the topic of Drop Pods I had not thought of reserving my army to get the first shots on him. I will certainly try this in my next game against marines.

Just some other things I've been wondering: against Drop Pod armies do we really need that much anti tank? Apart from 2 to 3 vehicles in the back which Scourges can take care of easily everything is forced to be on foot and the drop pods aren't gonna hurt anything anyway. Also, would you drop one of these Raider Squads in Gabor or a 20 man blob with an Haemon to give them FNP when they come on and a Webway Portal? If you paired that with the Dark artisan formation that's 20 warriors with 4+ FNP!

Again comments and thoughts would be appreciated Smile.

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Its_Rumble
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalite Warriors   Kabalite Warriors I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 03 2014, 22:08

Dissies really tear up SM and bike armies now. So those are what I have been bringing on my vehicles. I also find 3 talos and Grots to really really help against Drop pod armies.

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Ly'khal the Exiled
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalite Warriors   Kabalite Warriors I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 03 2014, 22:20

I've once popped the last wound off a swooping hive tyrant with a drop pod... don't underestamate them.. O_O

But seriously, the fact that are pods going to be a problem strictly depends on two things - the loadout, and the amount.

Now that a DS vehicles count as moving combat speed, the deathwind missiles (S5 large blast) isn't that funny anymore.. Sure you can outmanouvre them, having only 12" range but still.. Not funny..

And the amount.. Surely a pod or two isn't that bad blasting with their storm bolters, BUT amount of five or more pods starts to annoy sooner or later.. I've played with only four pods at a time but they have almost always payed me back at least half of their prize for the reason you suggested - People. Just. Ignore them.
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalite Warriors   Kabalite Warriors I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 03 2014, 22:21

drop pods can still claim objectives though, and if they're carrying troops they'll likely have objective secured too...

When I ran the numbers a 20 man kabalite warrior squad and 10 man squad with splinter racks came out at similar damage on a kills per points basis. FNP is great but I'd rather have things shoot at the raider with a 3+ jink

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PostSubject: Re: Kabalite Warriors   Kabalite Warriors I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 03 2014, 22:24

And for one of the reasons Burning Eye mentioned they've payed their price. Nobody likes and av12 3hp cocoon denying our objectives... -_-
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalite Warriors   Kabalite Warriors I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 00:12

I have lost more games in 7th (Maelstrom) due to drop pods being nigh-invincible when fought with darklight, than I have lost due to any other factor. Ignores cover? Meh. High ROF high strength shots? Meh. Bad dice luck? Meh. Stick a drop pod on an objective 6" from my table edge on T1.... f*CK!
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