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 The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?

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Ly'khal the Exiled
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PostSubject: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Sun Nov 02 2014, 17:47

As I was planning a new assault-hvy list I wanted to include our most resilient units without losing one of our top traits - speed.

For start I'll say that I never was sold on the "good ol' beaststar".. The unit was good, better than that, brutal. No question there. It was rather cheap when compared to many other death stars, it had a decent damage output and boy it's fast and that made it a very popular unit to use. Even this didn't buy me out, mainly because - I hate death stars... -_-

With all the "no more death star" -thing, I decided to give the unit a closer look and was sold on the "new" khymerae. For a prize of a Wych you'll get a close combat monster that's stronger, tougher and faster, has invuln. save and as much base attacks as the fore-mentioned Wych has on charge! Only down side of the Khymera to me was the low Ld, requiring me to still include the Beastmasters to baby-sit them. But still, wow. Paying less than for a Land Raider youll get 2 packs of 10 hounds and 2 masters, which will be, hence the name, a beast to encounter.
7
So I've read alot 'bout the unit since and all I've heard that they're nerfed so bad that nobody uses them any more.. What? We have too few "resilient" units already and I think this is one of our most resilient units available! With a toughness of a space marine I think the drop of the old 4++ save to match the daemon rule isn't that big of an issue. If you think they're not resilient enough, throw a few Fiends in to make them even tougher. 5++ isn't enough for you? Ask help from the family, our cousins are one of the best buff-casters out there, using even the daemonology table better than any other faction (excluding Daemons ofc.).

I know I didn't scratch any other of the beasties but I will as soon as I'll get experience using them more. The Khymera is still by far - the most versatile of the trio and I have a feeling that they'll continue to act as the bulk of the unit.

Stay put for more "deep-analyzing" tactics and please do SHARE if you have any opinions or experiences of your own!
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Sun Nov 02 2014, 22:40

The nerf to squad size is the main reason that I don't see them getting any use now. Quite simply, I don't think they'll survive long enough to do anything worthwhile to my opponent and won't attract enough of his firepower to be a meaningful benefit to the rest of the army. It really doesn't take much firepower to either break them or reduce the unit to a size that won't be a threat if it reaches assault.

I'll probably give them a whirl again at some point, if only because I can't bear the thought of my Kyhmerae sitting on the shelf unused. But I don't have great hopes for them.

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Ly'khal the Exiled
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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Sun Nov 02 2014, 22:51

I feel you Adhemar, the body-drop was a hit. That's why I intended to use 2 Packs. That helps against the shooting too, 2 packs - 2 targets. If you're worrying about them running away, you still stick a Shardseer in, OR stalk on your side of the table, waiting for the masters to get fearless. Add in some animus vitae and boom - 4th turn fearless, charge away!
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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Mon Nov 03 2014, 07:08

I was thinking about two khymeraes, two razorwing flock and two clawed fiends as a single unit.
It will be T5 unit with 16 Wounds, fast and furios!

I only think to replace one flock with beastmaster, for some LD

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Ly'khal the Exiled
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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Mon Nov 03 2014, 07:30

I'm really interested to see how many effective combinations we'll manage to craft with the beasts. Probably not anything that hasn't been seen before but for now I'm keeping my hopes up! Wink
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Mon Nov 03 2014, 09:30

@Devilogical wrote:
I was thinking about two khymeraes, two razorwing flock and two clawed fiends as a single unit.
It will be T5 unit with 16 Wounds, fast and furios!

I only think to replace one flock with beastmaster, for some LD

I certainly wouldn't consider flocks or fiends now. Flocks have taken a massive hit with stat reductions, points increase and becoming swarms. Fiends lost Bestial Fury in exchange for Rage, which is possibly a wash, but also lost a point of WS and a Wound. At 30 points they are still horrendously overpriced. Buy Grots instead. You won't regret it.

That's pretty much the problem with Beasts now. There's nothing they can do that another unit can't do better, and usually cheaper. Sure you could bring the unit you mention above but, for fewer points, I can bring 6 Reavers with 2 x Cluster Caltrops and they're pretty much better in every way.

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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Mon Nov 03 2014, 10:23

You sure ain't helping me out here Adhemar.. Very Happy

Yeah the Grots are better than Fiends, no question. The Flocks arent what they used to be, I admit it. But I'm not admitting that they won't see any use. For example, when used WITH those hard-hitting units, they could provide the support our Grotesques and Reavers need. Support by binding the enemy unit down and taking the overwatch for them and support by giving our enemies more targets to choose from. A full beast pack on the charge range still isn't something you can ignore or you'll be torn to shreds by the sheer volume of attacks.

So you're playing the fore-mentioned 10 hounds/2 masters unit with your 6 Reavers. By tar-pitting the enemy down with the beasts, gives the Reavers the chance to perform stabbing attacks with hit&run starting next turn. For example.
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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Mon Nov 03 2014, 10:39

Sorry. Don't want to sound so negative but I was a huge fan of the old Beaststar and I'm still in mourning for it. The new version of the beasts just don't do it for me, sadly. Sad

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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Mon Nov 03 2014, 10:51

No worries, and like I said, I feel you. Wink

The thing that I hate death stars as a whole, doesn't mean I hate(d) one of our most prized units..

And that's why I got the idea to posting this thread! Very Happy To prove our beast -users that their former glory isn't all gone and they still have their place on the table rather than collecting dust on the shelf!

And by the Dark Muses, I shall make that point, in this life, or until my Haemonculus -contractor patches me back up! Wink
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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Mon Nov 03 2014, 13:23

I'm thinking of running a few beast units in my assault list.
A unit of 3 fiends + a beastmaster is only 100 points. Thats 10 T5 wounds for 100 points. They are fast, have a good number of S5 attack and thanks to unit type beast they can make better use of cover then most units. A few of those squads could nicely compliment an assault list with Beasts and Grots as first wave and some Taloi acting as second wave.

Just teory, but I will probably test it at some point.


Last edited by mika on Mon Nov 03 2014, 19:19; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Mon Nov 03 2014, 18:45

[quote="Count Adhemar"]
@Devilogical wrote:
I was thinking about two khymeraes, two razorwing Fiends lost Bestial Fury in exchange for Rage, which is possibly a wash, but also lost a point of WS and a Wound. At 30 points they are still horrendously overpriced. Buy Grots instead. You won't regret it.

They also lost 10 points a model.  I may have prefered the old stat line, but the current one still brings what I need it to: fast S5 attacks.  They do it even cheaper now.  They stand less of a chance against MEQs than before, but i'm not all that upset.  I'd rather have 4 Fiends and Beastmaster at 130 than the old 3 Fiends at 156.

As for Grots, they still have the same problem they always did.  They are too slow.  If I have to give them a WWP or transport that shoots their unit price up even further, and is no real substitute for a better movement rate, Assault vehicles or not.  It is nice that they get PfP, but they really aren't in competition with one another.  Fiends are for using the faster movement to tear up vehicles, slam 5 man Devastators and tie up Crisis Suits.  Grots are the big fleshy fist that pummels everything in it's slow moving path.

Quote :
That's pretty much the problem with Beasts now. There's nothing they can do that another unit can't do better, and usually cheaper. Sure you could bring the unit you mention above but, for fewer points, I can bring 6 Reavers with 2 x Cluster Caltrops and they're pretty much better in every way.

Except in the number of wounds, toughness and save in CC.  The Beast don't have to depend on HoW to do their damage.  The Beasts are not going to worry as much when Ignores Cover weapons are on the field.

Also, we need to stop shutting down every thread with "Take Grots", "Take Scourges" and "Take Reavers".
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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Mon Nov 03 2014, 21:49

Wow, way to go False Son! Very Happy That's the spirit we need on this thread! And also true, I was going to bring up exactly the same thing! What makes beasts worth to take is that they don't need any form of transport to get them where they need to go, unlike the Grots, as False Son brought it up. Wink

Sure we still have the Reavers who are outshine the beast, yeah, but I would still choose to feed the Khymerae to my enemy's overwatch than my Reavers, who act a way wider battlefield-role! They can pop up tanks, a thing that even Fiends can't sadly do. So while ppl say "forget the beasts, take bikes" I intend to play in a way that when some hvy antitank is needed, I can throw the Reavers on that area (and I surely will, they're great to pop some armour), without losing too much of my cc capabilities!

Reavers are a great tool and they should be used in places you see you're not doing that well and BOOST your play in that area, rather than using them in only a single role.

Nice to see I got people to discuss this out, and more than that, nice to see the love for the beasts hasn't burnt out yet!
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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 02:48

I think the amount of wounds and such for such low points cost is pretty nice and really lends itself to MSU. Unfortunately my FA is so packed now and I don't really like the formation over a CAD.

Also I feel like raveners with some dark eldar bits would make great clawed fiends. I mean we have a whole tyranid planet to use now lol.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 09:47

@False Son wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Fiends lost Bestial Fury in exchange for Rage, which is possibly a wash, but also lost a point of WS and a Wound. At 30 points they are still horrendously overpriced. Buy Grots instead. You won't regret it.

They also lost 10 points a model.  I may have prefered the old stat line, but the current one still brings what I need it to: fast S5 attacks.  They do it even cheaper now.  They stand less of a chance against MEQs than before, but i'm not all that upset.  I'd rather have 4 Fiends and Beastmaster at 130 than the old 3 Fiends at 156.

I did mention the price drop but I still think they're overpriced for what they do. Yes, they're fast but, with no real armour or FNP, they rely purely on toughness to survive and can easily be shot down before they get anywhere near their target. But if they work for you then fine. I'm sure nothing I say will make any difference to your list and vice versa.

Quote :
As for Grots, they still have the same problem they always did.  They are too slow.  If I have to give them a WWP or transport that shoots their unit price up even further, and is no real substitute for a better movement rate, Assault vehicles or not.  It is nice that they get PfP, but they really aren't in competition with one another.  Fiends are for using the faster movement to tear up vehicles, slam 5 man Devastators and tie up Crisis Suits.  Grots are the big fleshy fist that pummels everything in it's slow moving path.

I'd argue that in any points-limited environment they are in competition with each other and IMO the Grots are simply better. The only thing that Fiends have over Grots is higher Initiative and one more attack on the charge but the Initiative will often be irrelevant due to lack of grenades and the extra attack is more than offset by the Grots higher WS and ability to usually reroll to wound plus they have that 1/6 chance of ID and the ability to wound higher Toughness targets more easily. Yes, the Grots may well require a WWP or Raider but those are points that don't simply go to waste. Both have uses beyond delivering the Grots.

Quote :
Quote :
That's pretty much the problem with Beasts now. There's nothing they can do that another unit can't do better, and usually cheaper. Sure you could bring the unit you mention above but, for fewer points, I can bring 6 Reavers with 2 x Cluster Caltrops and they're pretty much better in every way.

Except in the number of wounds, toughness and save in CC.  The Beast don't have to depend on HoW to do their damage.  The Beasts are not going to worry as much when Ignores Cover weapons are on the field.

And the beasts are slower (which seems to be a major concern for you), have no ranged attack whatsoever, do less damage when they assault and don't have hit & run to increase their survivability.

My main point here is that yes, people may well find a use for the new beasts. But there will usually be something else in our codex that can do the same thing better and/or cheaper.

At the end of the day though, it's your army and your list. Do whatever you want as long as you enjoy it!

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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 15:27

I will try tactics i describe above as soon as i get my codex.

Then i will make some thoutghs

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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 16:22

Quote :
Also, we need to stop shutting down every thread with "Take Grots", "Take Scourges" and "Take Reavers".

But that is the point - we discuss what a unit is for and then look to see what units might do the job better. It is not a conspiracy to shut down a topic. And Sylth are also contenders, btw. So it boils down to where do I have slots - FA or Elite - and what do I need most.

Defends the beastpack and make us want to take it we present reasons why there are better choices. I'm open to anything but I'm from Missouri - show me. The OP is presenting the question - is there a credible beastpack now and is it better than other choices. We are responding.

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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 18:33

@Devilogical wrote:
I was thinking about two khymeraes, two razorwing flock and two clawed fiends as a single unit.
It will be T5 unit with 16 Wounds, fast and furios!

I only think to replace one flock with beastmaster, for some LD

I think you need to count the majority Toughtness in models, not in wounds.

So, with 2 Khy and 2 Razor, you need 4 Fiends.





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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 19:01

@Cerve wrote:
@Devilogical wrote:
I was thinking about two khymeraes, two razorwing flock and two clawed fiends as a single unit.
It will be T5 unit with 16 Wounds, fast and furios!

I only think to replace one flock with beastmaster, for some LD

I think you need to count the majority Toughtness in models, not in wounds.

So, with 2 Khy and 2 Razor, you need 4 Fiends.
Not really. You have 2 of each of T3, T4 and T5. No majority toughness, so the pack is T5.

Last game I used 2 squads of 8 khymerae and 2 beastmasters. 200 points for two fairly fast, fairly dangerous units, decent tarpits and good bullet magnets. But I don't care for obsec, so I'm running our codex detachment. That's why I don't feel they clog my FA slots.

I feel like they're basicly doing what our wyches were always supposed to do and they do it better. For fewer points.

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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 19:53

@Finn wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
@Devilogical wrote:
I was thinking about two khymeraes, two razorwing flock and two clawed fiends as a single unit.
It will be T5 unit with 16 Wounds, fast and furios!

I only think to replace one flock with beastmaster, for some LD

I think you need to count the majority Toughtness in models, not in wounds.

So, with 2 Khy and 2 Razor, you need 4 Fiends.
Not really. You have 2 of each of T3, T4 and T5. No majority toughness, so the pack is T5.

Last game I used 2 squads of 8 khymerae and 2 beastmasters. 200 points for two fairly fast, fairly dangerous units, decent tarpits and good bullet magnets. But I don't care for obsec, so I'm running our codex detachment. That's why I don't feel they clog my FA slots.

I feel like they're basicly doing what our wyches were always supposed to do and they do it better. For fewer points.

Right, missed T4!
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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 20:32

@Finn wrote:

squads of 8 khymerae and 2 beastmasters. 200 points for two fairly fast, fairly dangerous units, decent tarpits and good bullet magnets. But I don't care for obsec, so I'm running our codex detachment. That's why I don't feel they clog my FA slots.

I feel like they're basicly doing what our wyches were always supposed to do and they do it better. For fewer points.

I think you are on the right track. If your looking for a beast star, then look somewhere else. It you are looking for a nice supporting cc unit that can tarpit a unit until a hard hitter comes by, then you are right here.
Now they are what they used to be, as support unit for witches or any one else.

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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 20:39

@Finn, I'm all ears. Wink How did they work for you? What else did you have? What kind of list did you play against?

Would be nice to read a batrep of some sort. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 21:03

It was a friendly 1500p game against CSM. I fielded this:

Archon, blaster, venom 140
Sslyth, venom 90

5 warriors, blaster, venom 120
5 warriors, blaster, venom 120
5 warriors, blaster, venom 120

Venom 65
2 beastmasters 8 khymerae 100
2 beastmasters 8 khymerae 100
Haywire scourges 120
Blaster scourges 140
Razorwing dual lances 140

Ravager 3 lances 125
Ravager 2 lances 120

My opponent had several obliterators, a heldrake, cultists, a chaos lord on bike with black mace, a defiler and some plague marines in transports.

We played a maelstrom mission. Basicly, I almost tabled my opponent and my speed allowed me to score points for objectives without ObSec nonsense. Really, the battle was nothing to write home about.

The thing is, with an army list such as mine, there is no right target to shoot at. That's why point and click beastmaster units performed fine.

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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 21:32

Well thanks any way Finn, great input on their role and tactics!

Hmmm.. I can't wait to give my list a test-run! >Very Happy It includes two very similiar packs that Finn was using and I'm beginning to feel really glad I put them there..
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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Wed Nov 05 2014, 09:23

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@False Son wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Fiends lost Bestial Fury in exchange for Rage, which is possibly a wash, but also lost a point of WS and a Wound. At 30 points they are still horrendously overpriced. Buy Grots instead. You won't regret it.

They also lost 10 points a model.  I may have prefered the old stat line, but the current one still brings what I need it to: fast S5 attacks.  They do it even cheaper now.  They stand less of a chance against MEQs than before, but i'm not all that upset.  I'd rather have 4 Fiends and Beastmaster at 130 than the old 3 Fiends at 156.

I did mention the price drop but I still think they're overpriced for what they do. Yes, they're fast but, with no real armour or FNP, they rely purely on toughness to survive and can easily be shot down before they get anywhere near their target. But if they work for you then fine. I'm sure nothing I say will make any difference to your list and vice versa.

Quote :
As for Grots, they still have the same problem they always did.  They are too slow.  If I have to give them a WWP or transport that shoots their unit price up even further, and is no real substitute for a better movement rate, Assault vehicles or not.  It is nice that they get PfP, but they really aren't in competition with one another.  Fiends are for using the faster movement to tear up vehicles, slam 5 man Devastators and tie up Crisis Suits.  Grots are the big fleshy fist that pummels everything in it's slow moving path.

I'd argue that in any points-limited environment they are in competition with each other and IMO the Grots are simply better. The only thing that Fiends have over Grots is higher Initiative and one more attack on the charge but the Initiative will often be irrelevant due to lack of grenades and the extra attack is more than offset by the Grots higher WS and ability to usually reroll to wound plus they have that 1/6 chance of ID and the ability to wound higher Toughness targets more easily. Yes, the Grots may well require a WWP or Raider but those are points that don't simply go to waste. Both have uses beyond delivering the Grots.

Quote :
Quote :
That's pretty much the problem with Beasts now. There's nothing they can do that another unit can't do better, and usually cheaper. Sure you could bring the unit you mention above but, for fewer points, I can bring 6 Reavers with 2 x Cluster Caltrops and they're pretty much better in every way.

Except in the number of wounds, toughness and save in CC.  The Beast don't have to depend on HoW to do their damage.  The Beasts are not going to worry as much when Ignores Cover weapons are on the field.

And the beasts are slower (which seems to be a major concern for you), have no ranged attack whatsoever, do less damage when they assault and don't have hit & run to increase their survivability.

My main point here is that yes, people may well find a use for the new beasts. But there will usually be something else in our codex that can do the same thing better and/or cheaper.

At the end of the day though, it's your army and your list. Do whatever you want as long as you enjoy it!


I think they are two completely different units.

When u want to protect you reavers, u want your opponet shot down your beast pack.

Beast packs are distractions, witch protect your Reaverd, Grots, Melè-trasports etc
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PostSubject: Re: The new Beast"masters" - a hit or miss?   Thu Nov 20 2014, 12:55

I saw an interesting idea over on dakka;

Where someone was suggesting running minimal squads with maximum MSU potential. The idea not being to use them to do the killing but to swarm the field. The idea being that at such low points costs you can effectively run quite a few squads that if fired upon; are either such a waste of target selection due to being 1-2 models recieving a full 10 man TAC squad of bolters or they are being ignored and can then be used for other effects;

You can run single khymera as units for getting to and from objectives to score VP's, while the rest of your units do there thang. These can help out in late game, as you can move to out of reach objectives or contest.

They can be used to eat overwatches for your other units.

Limiting the enemies movement. The enemy must remain 1 inch away, cant simply drive through if they are bikes or so forth. So for very little points cost you can create units that are designed to restrict access, or block escapes, while remaining so low on target priority they are a total waste to shoot at.


Taking that into consideration;
I thought clawed fiends solo could be pretty nasty; maybe with 1-2 khymera, as reasonably cheap units that can run straight for back field units, in an attempt to either tie them up or take the shots off other units. A clawed fiend could easily tie up something like some ork lootas.

flocks, as they are swarms in 2-3 sized units.

khymera in 3-5, very cheap, mobile screens to prevent movement, eat overwatches and get to objectives late game. All in all, yes I think in larger squads they are still pretty decent for assaults on their own, but in small units they have some completely different advantages that aren't focussed on their kill power. I think this is even more so true when everyone I see is saying how the game is mostly won through the movement phase and positioning.

As a second thought, in an assault based army, they could be great as small units (again to avoid eating fire as they are a 'waste' of a target priority) as combat 'helpers', so you can have a couple flocks floating about throwing themselves into combats to add some extra punch to a combat that you might be starting to lose, or somewhere you need to help get out of a tarpit, but dedicating a whole assault unit is a real waste.

As MSU that are very cheap, they hopefully would rank very low on your opponents target priority. So by having 2-3 of these 2 model units charge another unit you actually end up with the strength of a nice 6 model unit in combat, while only taking the overwatch against 2 models and more than likely having been ignored. Who is going to shoot a 2 model unit? and if they do, they really have wasted their shooting.


Any thoughts? so far this is only something i've thought about and not given any practice. As with the 6FA detachment its pretty easy to get the required amount of FA's. Whereas in any other army you'd be paying quite a high tax on troops and HQs to achieve this; which is why I think its potentially viable for DE.

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