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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Tue Nov 04 2014, 09:09

If they gave wych weapons an AP such as ap 4 for wyches and Ap4 rending for bloodbrides would you take them then?

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Tue Nov 04 2014, 09:21

@Grub wrote:
If they gave wych weapons an AP such as ap 4 for wyches and Ap4 rending for bloodbrides would you take them then?

No, but I play mainly against MEQ so AP4 is pointless in most cases. All I'd like to see for Wyches is Dodge applying throughout the whole assault phase, allow 1 Wych weapon per 3 Wyches (rather than the ridiculous way it works now) and give the whole unit Shred.

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Tue Nov 04 2014, 10:17

I agree with everything you said, those things should have been the normal rules anyway!

Giving them an AP weapon like what hellions have would make me happy with them (alongside what you have just said). It makes sense with the fluff in my opinion, they should be able to get through all but the thickest armor as they are supposed to be elite gladiators! That way they would start chewing through select opponents while not being ridiculous. Just my thoughts.

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Tue Nov 04 2014, 10:22

I wonder if the Wych weapons could be reworked to simulate that? Maybe give a cumulative effect for each Wych Weapon (of any type) in the unit. 1 weapon = Shred, 2 = Rending, 3 = Precision Strikes? Would encourage bigger units and make them capable of being nasty in assault but not overpowered.

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Tue Nov 04 2014, 10:36

Rending is a great mechanic for that, Grub. In the case of Wyches I'd see it not being so much a case of going through the armour as round it, essentially you can have the worlds best terminator armour, but there are still neck and limb joints in it etc, and wyches are (well, should be) good enough to find those gaps occasionally. Shred would still be needed though i think to make them worthwhile.

Just thinking about the numbers - a squad of 10 wyches charges 5 terminators with heavy flamer - 3 die to overwatch, leaving 21 attacks from the wyches. 10 hit, 3 wound. That means you've got a 50% chance of getting a rending wound. If you add shred in to the mix, you're looking at 5 wounds, so every chance of a rending one, and quite possibly a failed save too. Not exactly broken, but no slouch either (and that's without furious charge)

Bloodbrides (by way of comparison using the same principles) would manage 7 wounds - I still think they need more of a boost since that's barely any change from the normal wyches.

Count - that's a great idea!

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Tue Nov 04 2014, 10:37

That's a really interesting idea. Far too original to be implemented by GW Razz But that would be a really great addition to their combat potential. Especially if it were 1 wych weapon per 3 models. You could up it to 5 in a squad of 15 and give some really potent stuff, such as lose 1 attack, a reduction in opponents weapon skill. That could make them potent enough to be effective as well as not being OP due to the point tax if you wanted these effects.

Edit: Burning Eye, I agree, rending is a great way to emphasise the wyches finding the joints in armor, I was just brainstorming! Thinking more along the lines of they find the kinks in armor and go through it, should be easier to find the weakness in a firewarriors armor then a terminators! Razz

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Thu Nov 13 2014, 15:36

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I wonder if the Wych weapons could be reworked to simulate that? Maybe give a cumulative effect for each Wych Weapon (of any type) in the unit. 1 weapon = Shred, 2 = Rending, 3 = Precision Strikes? Would encourage bigger units and make them capable of being nasty in assault but not overpowered.

I've just been doing a spot of mathhammer on this idea and it actually makes Wyches pretty decent MEQ hunters! I looked at a squad of 10 Wyches with 3 Wych Weapons and a Hekatrix with Agoniser (150 points) vs a squad of Tactical Marines with a Veteran Sergeant (150 points). I've only looked at the turn in which the Wyches charge so this is really a best case scenario, as the Wyches would need to actually get the entire unit, intact, into range to launch an assault. I've also assumed that they have FNP and that the Dodge save applies throughout the entire assault phase. Anyhoo...

Shooting attacks: 10 Splinter Pistols, 6.66 hits, 3.33 wounds, 1.11 unsaved
Overwatch: 20 Boltgun shots, 3.33 hits, 2.22 wounds, 1.11 unsaved, 0.74 after FNP
Assault: 9 normal Wyches minus 0.74 casualties = 8.26 Wyches, 24.78 attacks, 12.39 hits
Of these, with Shred and Rending we get 6.88 wounds, of which 1.14 are Rending, 1.91 other unsaved = 3.05 dead Marines. The Hekatrix adds 1.5 dead marines for a total, including shooting, of 5.66 dead marines. The remaining 4.34 marines (we'll assume the sergeant has been killed in a challenge) inflict only 0.48 dead Wyches, meaning the Wyches win by 4 and Marines test Morale on Ld4!

On the flipside of course, the Wyches actually have to get into combat. The same Marine unit kills ~6 Wyches if they get to rapid fire at them. Seems pretty balanced to me!

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Tue Jan 13 2015, 09:51

@Count - just taking what you're doing there and working with it in relation to the OP thought about a supplement/formation.

How about a different power from pain table for wyches, using those rules as the basis for improving the squad, so turn 2 all wyches get shred, turn 3 rending, turn 4 precision strike etc.

Interesting? If not, how would you write a different power from pain chart for a wych cult, would you go down the route of extra attacks/strength/improved dodge?

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Tue Jan 13 2015, 09:54

Thats pretty much the only thing they could do if they do suplement for wyches, barring the usual relics stuff.

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Tue Jan 13 2015, 10:13

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Count - just taking what you're doing there and working with it in relation to the OP thought about a supplement/formation.

How about a different power from pain table for wyches, using those rules as the basis for improving the squad, so turn 2 all wyches get shred, turn 3 rending, turn 4 precision strike etc.

Interesting? If not, how would you write a different power from pain chart for a wych cult, would you go down the route of extra attacks/strength/improved dodge?

Alternative PfP sounds good but I'd worry about the loss of FNP, unless you incorporate that into the chart, but then it starts to look like the normal chart, and they lose out on FC, Fearless and Rage. Overall I think the current PfP chart is pretty good for Wyches and I'd prefer to give them extra combat ability via their weapons.

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Tue Jan 13 2015, 10:23

They really need to be more killy, maybe even at the cost of durability. I'd rather see them able to win combat, then be able to endure loosing.

Fearless is gained by many ICs.

If they had table of 5 purely combat buffs that might be better.

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Tue Jan 13 2015, 10:31

Gladiators, fighting as a performance and competition, rarely do so as a mob.

Perhaps Wyches should be approached differently to troops: Maximum squad size of 10, but then access to better weapons, so the quality of their attacks is improved, but the number limited?

Bloodbrides could be 1-3 models, with a better dodge save, 3++ perhaps, and the Succubus 2++.

I don't see that being overpowered, as they are still T3, and the Succubus will often be Instantly Dead if she fails a save.
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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Tue Jan 13 2015, 10:35

@Azdrubael wrote:
They really need to be more killy, maybe even at the cost of durability. I'd rather see them able to win combat, then be able to endure loosing..

I'm not sure it's possible to make them any less durable without having them arrive on the battlefield already dead  Very Happy

Quote :
Fearless is gained by many ICs.

Only Drazhar from our codex has Fearless inately, although any unit can gain it via PfP. But you'd then need to babysit the Wyches with an IC from the normal codex (or Coven book).

Quote :
If they had table of 5 purely combat buffs that might be better.

They'd need to be pretty awesome to account for the loss of the normal chart.

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Tue Jan 13 2015, 10:36

how about changing the dodge so it's more like the emperor's champion stances - one is defensive, and grants you the 4++ - another is offensive, and gives them more combat abilities, say +1A and rending, for example.

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Wed Jan 14 2015, 09:22

If this is the Wychlisting thread (see what I did there?), why not give them their old Wych weapons rules back? For those who don't remember, the whole unit was upgraded, without losing their splinter pistols. Models in combat against them lost bonuses from additional hand weapons, and halved their WS unless their unmodified Strength was 6 or higher.

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Wed Jan 14 2015, 10:46

Point of order - those were the new Wych Weapon rules. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Wed Jan 14 2015, 11:50

@Thor665 wrote:
Point of order - those were the new Wych Weapon rules. Wink

Old Man Thor strikes again! Smile

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Wed Jan 14 2015, 11:59

@Thor665 wrote:
Point of order - those were the new Wych Weapon rules. Wink

What I want to know then is, what were the old wych weapon rules...

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Wed Jan 14 2015, 12:31

Are there any houae rules in the realspace about wyches, or are there anyone using wyches anyway because of their beauty although they arent really worth it? I see a lot of competativeness on this forum and i agree that wyches are an inferior choice. But are they never used?
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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Wed Jan 14 2015, 12:34

Some people do use them and they can of course occasionally come good. But you will rarely, if ever, see them in 'competitive' lists.

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Wed Jan 14 2015, 13:12

There are several reports in the realspace raids section where you see wyches used, sometimes quite heavily, in army lists. What tends to happen though is that they're there to fulfill the troops requirements and they don't often do the heavy lifting in games, mainly just tying combat units up until the better combat units can charge in.

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Wed Jan 14 2015, 17:27

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Thor665 wrote:
Point of order - those were the new Wych Weapon rules. Wink

What I want to know then is, what were the old wych weapon rules...

Ooooh, lessee;

The Shardnet & Impaler were basically a banshee mask and -1 to hit modifier to opponents.
Hydraknives made you swing at Init 1, but doubled your attacks after modifiers (so, say, with drugs and charge you'd do 8 attacks)
Razorsnare & Falchion let you select models within 2" and force them into base combat with your Wych, and also gave your opponents a -1 attack modifier.

They were also all free upgrades.

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Wed Jan 14 2015, 17:54

wow, those are so much better.. I started this game shortly after the new dark eldar range came out (5th edition)

Were those rules considered really overpowered at the time, or something? Man those are heaps better than anything I've seen for wyches since playing.
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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Wed Jan 14 2015, 18:23

Sorry Thor, I didn't know we were acknowledging the original original codex. :-)

Wyches in the original 3rd ed codex were considered bad, for pretty much all of the same reasons they're considered bad now, plus no dodge, no Power From Pain, and they were elites. Also, splinter weapons weren't poisoned back then.

Wyches in the revised 3rd ed codex were considered good. Wych weapons were changed to the unit-wide upgrade I detailed above, they gained dodge, and if you took a Wych Lord (Archite or Dracite, predecessors to today's Succubus) they became troops. They also went up to 12 points per model (13 with Wych weapons). I never heard anybody say they were overpowered in my play group, but that's a small sample size, and the internet was not then as it is now.

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