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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Thu Oct 30 2014, 13:18

Hey guys, this is just a few things that have begun to tie themselves into coherent thoughts in my brain over the last few days (completely by accident I assure you, haha)

I recall reading, way back when our new codex was rumoured, that there were going to be two supplements with it, one cult and one coven. Obviously as the rumours crystallised we heard nothing more about the cult supplement, and I think it's fair to say that with the exception of reavers and the succubus (some might argue including reavers) all the cult units (Wyches, Bloodbrides, Beastmasters, Hellions - although they're not directly cult related) took some kind of a hit with the new codex.

Then, weirdly, we see the release of the Wych Cult Shardstorm collection, which for 95 of your hard earned squiddlies sees you the proud(?) owner of the basis of a cult army.

So far, so GW I hear you say.

Then I noticed another pointer. The Dark Eldar faction now has 2 (non-formation) detachments, as you might expect, one for coven, one for general play from the codex. It also has several small formations from the supplement, one large supplement formation consisting of all the other coven formations, and a second large formation from the main codex.

So here's the rub. NONE of these formations allow cult units (ok Hellions, but the codex confirms they're not directly cult units).

With the way releases have been going from GW recently, formations etc seems to be how they're injecting flavour into the factions (skyblight etc)

I'm beginning to believe therefore that there are plans for the wych Cults, and that we might very well see some form of dataslate or supplement (please be a supplement, PLEASE!) for them in the not far distant future. I'm not thinking the next few months, but it seems the foundations have been laid for Cults to get a bit of love (especially if they look at sales figures of cult units since the codex dropped...)

So what do you guys think, am I losing my mind? Or might it just be that there's something being worked on.

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Ciirian
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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Thu Oct 30 2014, 14:03

I agree in thinking that a Cult supplement will come eventually. They just released a box set for Wych Cult themed army (Wyches, Succubus, Reavers and vehicles) as well as the double box of Wyches + Raider. My guess is they are going to space it out from the intial release a bit; maybe add a unit Cult specific.
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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Thu Oct 30 2014, 14:20

Whats that give the options to the part of my codex that needs it BLASPHEMY!

i want two things Succubus on a jetbike and Formations that give wyches/bloodbrides/hellions a reason to be used.

If the wych cult supplement exists (oh god i hope it does) if half as much effort that went into the covens codex is put into it should be what we need... i still want more

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Thu Oct 30 2014, 15:09

Sigh! I so hope they do something as they are utterly useless at the moments (apart from reavers). I am not even that taken with the succubus tbh. The best out of a bad bunch I think out of our hq's maybe but still not great. A supplement would be awesome and much needed and I would certainly buy it. I have a lot of fondness for the wych cults (and their models are awesome) so really hope they get the supplement treatment with expanded fluff and all ( although no doubt we will be fleeced by GW for the privilege of buying it and making units viable that should have been in the first place)

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Thu Oct 30 2014, 16:44

I've thought from before this codex's release that GW has always had a supplement or the like in mind for the cults. The Dark Eldar as an army is well suited for multiple expansions.  I'd be very surprised if they don't release one within 6 months. It will probably feature characters leading unique formations that emphasize some aspect of the gladitorial arena combat style.
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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Thu Oct 30 2014, 16:55

I'm surprised the coven supplement didn't include one or two special/upgrade characters to be honest, but yeah there are lots of factions out there that lend themselves to supplements - ignoring all the different marine chapters for now, I can think of:

Ork Speedfreeks
All ork clans (Goffs, Bad Moon etc)
Tyranid hive fleets
Genestealer cult
Various craftworlds - though Saim Hann and Biel Tan are probably already covered.
Guard regiments (like Elysians/Tanith etc)

The main factions that don't obviously lend themselves to such a variety of build options in my mind would be Necrons (though with a new codex inbound I wouldn't be surprised to see them come up with some, perhaps pushing the true AI elements like wraiths, or an elite force of triarch elements) and Tau (farsight already done, can't think of any other obvious divergences off the top of my head)

I would love a wych cult supplement to introduce rending to wyches in combat, but I doubt they'd change the main rules in such a big way, perhaps introduce uber drugs or roll several times on the drug table and apply all the results - allowing them to charge from reserve (even just one unit) would be fun, but not going to happen.

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Thu Oct 30 2014, 22:13

I think they have very clearly left the possibility open for a future Cult supplement. They may even have already done some preliminary work on it. But I don't think that necessarily means it will ever see publication.

I think it will be interesting to see if they start updating 6th ed codexes to 7th once they've updated the remaining softcover books.

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Thu Oct 30 2014, 22:27

I too remember the things you have mentioned, but I wouldn't take it as a guarantee. We can only speculate at this point. Yes, I'm sure that GW initially planned to release two supplements.

However, what I think to be most likely is that GW said two supplements are too expensive for a not very popular army, fearing they might not get the money back they invest in it. Maybe a cult supplement was already done by 20 or 30 percent?

What I ask myself, when would be the right time to release such a supplement if not when Dark Eldar were in the spotlight? Sadly, I think they realized they can make more profit if they focus their time on different supplements or whatever.

It is very possible that GW just wanted to see how well the Dark Eldar sell when they have a new codex get a little bit of marketing presence. And in case they do good, they'd decide that it's worth to release a cult supplement.

But, well, speculations from my side only.

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Fri Oct 31 2014, 01:18

Let's have a petition vote for launching a Cult release on Valentine's day.
I can see the artworks showing a Boodbride splattered with blood. Moving in.
Smiling as if she is about to kiss you.
But only stab you in your heart before you know it.


"The bloody brides come to collect what is theirs.
You suffering, your struggle, your last breath..."
Twisted Evil
Ruleswise I'm expecting indd another PfP table or drug table. Or just maybe a modification of the drug roll +/-1.
I would like to see all units that fight in an Arena:
Wyches, Bloodbrides, Reavers, Beasts, and Hellions because they need a boost.
I might even trow in some Scourges, as they would make ideal models for sitting on the roof of an Arena, overlooking the spectacle.
And dealing death from above as they see fit Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Fri Oct 31 2014, 05:45

Well, i wouldnt hold my breath for this Suplement. I'm still waiting for Ulthwe or Biel-Tan - but it is still just Yanden.

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Fri Oct 31 2014, 08:50

I wouldn't be surprised if they held off on Eldar supplements - they must know how far ahead of all other codices the Eldar are, so I'm expecting them to be one of the first re-writes once Necrons and Blood Angels are done.

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Fri Oct 31 2014, 10:25

I would love a supplement frankly. Although on a moral level I think its sleazy business to charge for something that should be included in the main codex anyway, space marine codex is 179 pages to dark eldars 113, think they could have squeezed in all the important bits from any supplement in that!

But I'm not sure they will do a supplement. The Coven one was a given. Its a totally different branch of dark eldar and the models are so expensive that they knew they would reap the profits, god grotesques are excellent, now pay £15 a model.


I think basically they didn't think things through, didn't playtest and as a result things, in particular Wyches took a hit and then weren't improved like they should have been. I don't see them actually doing something to fix this. Combat drugs are already only available to cult lists anyway so they wont change them and PfP is almost certainly aimed at Cult already. As a result unfortunately I don't see them doing anything. And even if they did, they lack the imagination and gameplay experience to really make then in any way viable :'(

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Fri Oct 31 2014, 10:47

I think they probably saw sales of wyches and figured they must be good, without realising that people were only really using them for HWG - as such they took away the HWG without realising they were effectively slapping a 'don't bother buying me' sticker on the box - if they look at sales of wyches after this codex they'll realise no-one wants them and any supplement should boost them nicely (let me stay positive, I'm trying really hard to hope they get this right)

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Fri Oct 31 2014, 11:29

I'm struggling to see what a supplement could feasibly do to make Wyches, Beasts and Hellions viable again other than basically making them the same as they were in the 5e codex.

I don't actually want Wyches to have HWG as I always struggled with the concept of lithe, agile gladiators having the job of taking out tanks. But they needed something to compensate for the loss of HWG (and the HWG needed to be given to another unit to compensate for the loss of AT in our lists). They got nothing and now they serve no purpose in an army list. A supplement would need to fundamentally change the codex version of Wyches in order to be worthwhile and I can't see that happening.

Beasts had several strengths, a huge battlefield footprint, decent survivability and very good offence. They essentially lost all three of those. Add in the loss of the Baron and his hit & run and grenades and there are very few compelling reasons to take them. If the supplement had a formation that enabled you to at least partially recreate the beast star (larger unit size, equivalent of grenades or hit & run etc) then it might be useful.

Hellions are similar to Wyches in that they lost pretty much everything that made them worth taking. They can't be troops, they lost an attack and are worse then Reavers in every way. What would a supplement do to make them worth taking? And why wasn't that in the codex?

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Fri Oct 31 2014, 11:42

The only way they could feasibly do it would be to have formations with boosts for example an extra attack, re-roll to wound, webway portal assaults etc. Then you have a potential good close combat force without having to redesign them completely. But that relies far too much on common sense and actually understanding the game to be implemented by GW!

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Fri Oct 31 2014, 11:47

For the Wyches, rending would be nice in the first place. Also, you have to take 10 of them to get the three special weapons which makes it really hard to consider putting an succubus inside the unit as you have to leave two special weapons or their transport at home.

For the hellions.. I would really like to see them being jetpack units instead of jump units while keeping their hit+run. This would fit more to the skyboard. I can't imagine hellions running half of the battle on the ground and jumping on their board from time. They should more be able to perform a stable flight the whole time.
Also it would be nice to improve their splinter weapons or at least the gleve so that they could perform at least one role adequate.
But I don't see any of this happen to hellions in an supplement.
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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Fri Oct 31 2014, 11:52

For wyches I'm thinking maybe something like a formation (or formations...) that gives them access to other kinds of weapons, maybe they've been trained to fight in a particular way or against particular opponents (I'd love to see them get rending, the synergy between low strength often needing 6's to wound but those wounds also going straight through armour appeals to me)

I have never used beasts (barely even looked at the entry to be honest) so not sure how i would change them up.

Hellions I think as we've seen elsewhere need something relating to their weapons - either an extra attack or maybe making the glaive a power weapon (perhaps make it an upgrade at 2-3 points per model - you wouldn't always want to pay that depending on your opponent and how many models in the unit)

That being said, the supplements don't often change stats or rules like that - we've seen corpsethief claw give a specific (oversized) unit of Talos get scout - so they give you a really handy rule that would be awesome on a unit of maybe 2, but then say no, if you want to use it, you need to spend 600+ points on the unit. In that regard I could see them maybe applying something like rending, but there's then be some imposition to prevent it from being an automatic win (perhaps preventing you from getting charge bonuses so you're limited in numbers of attacks)

I'm just chucking ideas around really.

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Fri Oct 31 2014, 12:53

There could be some "easy" fixes to a lot of units...

Hellions could get precision strike on 6+ for example (Heliarch with Hook always does precision strikes). That could underline their habit of anouncing their picks during an attack run and make them more valuable against Armies with either lots of special weapons or "weak" force multipliers (like Warlocks or Imp. Sergeants). Also delete "two-handed" from Glaives and change the Hellions movement type to beasts like the Beastmasters skyboard.
Better utilising cover, no need for nades and not 2 different rulesets for the same piece of wargear.

They still get shot to crap most of the time but if you manage to get them into melee they can pretty much maul a unit even if they do not destroy it outright.
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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Fri Oct 31 2014, 15:06

I don`t think they will release cult (hope i`am wrong)
They released new codex, they release suppl for haemies aaaand... a Shardstorm.

That`s all, folks!

P.S. Hope i`am wrong, because i WANT THESE CULT-BASED SUPPL!!!

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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Sat Nov 01 2014, 10:35

Tyranids released three supplements shortly after the codex.

I love Wyches, they are what made me choose DE, I do like me a svelt fighting lady!

The issues with Wyches are:
1) Too many get killed before they get to combat.
Fix) Dodge save should apply to exploding vehicles and overwatch

2) Their initial charge impact, if undepleted, is fine.
3) Their ability to survive continued combat is fine.

4) They don't do enough damage in subsequent combat, especially if the Hek dies.
Fix) +1 attack in all rounds, not just on charge. They are supposed to be lightning fast, so every round should feel like a surprise attack.

5) Due to the lack of damage, they break too easily. In fluff terms, a defeat is shaming, once into combat I think they should be fearless.

I would happily pay 15 points per Wych for the above fixes, just as I used to for Genestealers, when they were viable aggressive troops.

We have a good cheap troop choice in Warriors; a more expensive but nastier troop choice in Wyches would be lovely.
Blood brides should be similarly buffed, with added rending perhaps.

Wyches should be expensive but terrifying. At the moment they are cheap but ineffective.
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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Sat Nov 01 2014, 19:01

Extending the Wych 4+ dodge save to cover overwatch and rolling out of open topped vehicle explosions would be a quick fix.

Wych weapons though, instead of doing 3 separate mediocre things I'd just say "They're ALL rending weapons!" for +4pts/model and increase their count to 2 per 5 wyches (and all can upgrade for the Elite slot ver.)

Combat drugs too could be handled without a random roll, just have them give one all-around useful effect: "reroll 1's to hit and wound in melee"

You now have a squad of inv sv melee fellows with accurate rending attacks, as well as achieving the 7e goal of LESS book keeping and fiddly differences to keep track of. Now it's actually feasible for your arena gladiators to actually take down a carnifex, as the fluff implies.

*The Archite Glaive though, anyone else think it's kind of odd that it's strictly worse than a CWE Executioner (+2 strength instead of just +1 strength).
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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Mon Nov 03 2014, 17:19

My suggestions for a Cult supplement would be:

Give a Combat Drugs RR
Give them a useful CC Warlord Trait table: Rampage, Hatred, Fearless, RR's in challenge, and the like

Formations to boost specific unit types:
Wyches: either give them a second Combat Drug roll or general boost like: Dodge extends to other Sub-phases, I would suggest 5++ on overwatch and 6++ vs exploding transport
Bloodbrides would need to be boosted too, like a general Rending rule, or something nasty like Poison 4+ CC (I know another unit but that would make their amount of attacks count)

I do like the suggestion that all Wyches (and Bloodbrides) would always benefit from the charge bonus attack (on a Ld test or something). Also the suggestion to make their Wych weapons a unit wide upgrade instead of special weapons limited upgrade, to simplify things.

Hellions: Give them Move Through Cover or special "latest Skyboard modification table" Including: Move through cover, Range increase on Splinter Pods, Jet pack rule instead of Jump, Rending Hellglaives, S4 Rending HoW and Plasma Grenades (oh no not the grenades! ;-)

Beasts: Hit & Run formation and no (or larger) unit size limit.

PS: if anybody knows a way we could get out ideas (needs) into GW codex team, THAT would be great Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Mon Nov 03 2014, 17:56

"6++ vs exploding transport": we already have that, called armour save Wink

I like the idea. Re-roll Combat drugs especially. I played four times and got +1 T every time XD (which was not too bad against IG - flamers)

What about a "Scalpel squadron" where every wych gets HWG and one victory point for one destroyed tank?

I played 9 wyches in every of my four games and took the supplement haemonculus with them. Fearless tarpit, cheap, fleet, golden! Better than before I say!
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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Tue Nov 04 2014, 04:14

Does the supplement heamonkulus have fleet?
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PostSubject: Re: A few thoughts on Wych Cults   Tue Nov 04 2014, 05:58

He can with a wargear upgrade.

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