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 Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!

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Andy140491
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PostSubject: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 09:05

Hey guys!

I would have posted this in the army list section but I don't know whether it would have gone as id to discuss the entries and different variations through building! 

I bought a Dark eldar army yesterday, with a little guidance from a guy on this site. I varied it to my own taste but my problem is, that I seriously love all the models and all the rules. 

I'm a new collector to Dark eldar, so I don't have the gripes (rightly so) of the vet Dark eldar players, but hopefully in time I can gain that accolade the models are beautiful  anyway! The first game I shall be playing will see me face off between space marines, allied with Imperial Knights, and imperial guard. I'll be tag teaming with my friends tau more then likely. But I'm kinda after a list that's more universal then "roflstomp" space marines. Because more then likely I'll be using the list against my tau mate too. Anyway the list is 

1 Archon with 4 Medusa  
1 Succubus  
1 Haemonculus  

4 Grotesques  
1 sqaud of Incubi  

3 Squads of Kabalite warriors and Raiders  

4 boxes of Scourges  

3 Talos/cronos Engines  

2 Razorwing jetfighters  

1 Voidraven Bomber 

I love the idea of loads of shots. I eventually wanna get a couple of Ravagers. Even if they've been nerfed a little they still carry 3?!! Disintegration cannons?! Love it! Anyway I have a little idea in my head what I'd like to keep in a 1500 point list but I'd love to see your idea and why? I mean against marines I'd take the incubi and I'd buy a venom. I think that would be ace to mince a few marines with them  

Anyway thank you for any input and thanks to the guys that helped me decide!!!

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 09:17

Well you got yourself some serious assaulters there. :-) Grots and Incubi, Talos... Not much AT... Its not much shooting to combine if you love that...

Also you should say what are you up against...

You have enough for Dark Artisan formation from the Supplement...

For Incubi I rather use a Raider. Tougher, faster, can soften target with Dissie. Against MEQ it has the same damage output as Venom.

What role do you want your HQ be? CC? Shooty?

Try to have a plan when you are building a list. Not just say "I take incubi, coz they mince marines". What will be your deployment when you have ini and when you lose it? What do you want to achieve T1, T2, etc... Do you want to play defensively or offensively?

What is your Anti-tank, Anti-horde, Anti-MEQ, Anti-MC, Anti-TEQ solution? Do you want specialists or overlapping roles?
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 09:28

My first 'all-comers' list based on 3 games playtesting (ok, not much, but some things haven't changed much either) is:
HQ
Succubus with webway portal, Armour of Misery, Archite Glaive

Elites
4 Grotesques in Raider with Dark Lance - Succubus rides with this unit

Troops
10 Warriors in Raider with Dark Lance, Splinter Racks and Night Shields
10 Warriors in Raider with Dark Lance, Splinter Racks and Night Shields

Fast Attack
Razorwing with 4 necrotoxin missiles, 2 Dark Lances and twin Splinter Rifle
6 Reavers with 2 Heat Lances and 2 Cluster Caltrops
5 Scourges with 4 Haywire Blasters

Heavy Support
Ravager with Triple Dark Lances
2 Talos with twin Haywire Blasters and Ichor Injectors

So there's about 270pts worth of units in there that you don't have.

If you want to take Incubi you could take a small unit of them and a Cronos to boost your Talos' survivability, or a second unit of scourges. If you need a few extra points the WWP on the Succubus isn't essential

A rough sketch of tactics, target priority etc is in my army list post http://www.thedarkcity.net/t10572-kabal-of-the-burning-eye-1500-tac

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 09:32

Yea. That does not seem like a bad start to see what units you actually like and works in your meta. Just dont expect to roll over all your opponents. ;-)
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Andy140491
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 09:44

Can I just say... I love this forum. It's so responsive and helpful Smile seriously to say you all play space pirate elves that assault, pillage and torture people; you guys are awesome Wink

My point. I know the models I bought aren't fitting to my intended play style but I just loved the models and I may branch out into something else. I thought it may give me a foothold into the army Smile and I have no Intention on steam rolling people. In fact. I have every assumption that I will lose my first few games.

I also bought the Haemonculus covers boom. My. God. The boom is gorgeous. As is the Dark eldar codex. They're so nicely designed I'm really loving the feel already... but as for creating my list...

I have no idea what I'm facing as they're my friends, friends. So all I know is they field imperial knights, space marines and imperial guard. That's it Smile and aside from fighting them I'll be playing my tau friend. And he can pick and choose what he wants?
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Finn
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 09:44

My general advice for running DE is to make sure you have some AT dedicated units as well as at least some AT capability spread out as much as possible among all the units you take. Do not expect your dedicated AT units survive for very long. Try to keep them alive of course, but do not expect. DE is one of the most, if not THE most fragile army out there. If your opponent succeeds in stripping your AT before you deal with his vehicles, you're in very deep trouble. You can still win with mobilty, but your life will be very, very hard.

Soon you'll find out that your worst nightmare is spammed S5-S7 shooting.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 09:56

Marines: If they have lots of bikes, then laugh, a lot. They pay a premium for T5 models that our poisoned shots completely ignore. Same with grav guns - they'll only be wounding you on 5's thanks to their special rules.

Remember to focus your fire, and keep the gunboats together - 20 poisoned shots (from being in rapid fire range) are all well and good, but they'll still only average about 3 marines dead each. You need to minimise return fire as a DE player. Make use of cover to block line of sight.

Knights: Not played them myself, but they have an energy shield that they need to declare is facing a particular direction. Give it a threat so that it faces one way, then drop in the scourges so they're hitting a different facing, they have 6 hull points though so you'll need to concentrate fire on it. Whatever you do, don't let it get into combat.

Guard: The Razorwing should be a winner here if he takes big squads - try to figure out how many you're going to need to kill before declaring how many missiles you're firing - you can shoot up to four weapons but if he's spread out it might be a good idea to save a couple for the next turn. Generally Guard shooting is much better if they have their commanders to dish out orders. Take down these units first and they become much less effective. If he brings heavy mech list, concentrate your fire on the most dangerous units first, punishers only have a 24" range for their main weapon so keep your distance and take out longer range stuff first.

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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 10:12

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Guard: The Razorwing should be a winner here if he takes big squads - try to figure out how many you're going to need to kill before declaring how many missiles you're firing - you can shoot up to four weapons but if he's spread out it might be a good idea to save a couple for the next turn.

I used to always fire all 4 missiles when I entered, but then my razorwings weren't much of a threat after that. Lately, I've been switching mine back to two disintegrators and I've found that firing those and just 2 missiles ravages most units anyway so I definitely agree with you on this and not just for astra militarum. It keeps my razorwings cheap and both of mine have been wiping out multiple units of fire warriors, pink horrors, necron warriors, and marines. It's also nice that they don't use all their output right away anymore because it means my opponents can't ignore them as much now. I love my razorwings, that's all I'm saying.
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MyNameDidntFit
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 10:53

The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Knights: Not played them myself, but they have an energy shield that they need to declare is facing a particular direction. Give it a threat so that it faces one way, then drop in the scourges so they're hitting a different facing, they have 6 hull points though so you'll need to concentrate fire on it. Whatever you do, don't let it get into combat.

Pay very particular attention to this: the Ion Shield is declared at the start of the Opponent's (ie. not the Knight player's) Shooting Phase.


The best bet is still to get two threats on them, but you will always have the most potent one suffering through a 4++ and that is very important to remember.
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Andy140491
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 11:04

Thanks for the advice guys! What if I was to make 2 x 4 haywire blaster scourges and 2 x 4 heat lances? Present the haywire scourges in front and pray I can get behind it with my Heat lances?

How would you guys format a 1500 point list with the units I have? I didn't intend on taking the incubi, nor the Void raven. So 2 Razorwing and a couple of taloi, with my full amount of scourges for fast attack?
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 11:24

I wouldn't go too mad on scourges, generally speaking i like to spread weapons across different platforms for redundancy, by which i mean if all your anti tank is in scourges, your opponent only has to dedicate AI weapons to take them down. If you take scourges, ravager, razorwing etc then he's got to use different techniques for each one, and he's unlikely to be able to get rid of all your AT in one go.

That's why the Talos' are in my list, they can shrug off an obscene amount of firepower but HWB on them means they've still got range to threaten vehicles - they won't blow them up but don't forget that penetrating hits on most things can still destroy weapons and reduce them to snap shots only (which against battle cannons is hilarious)

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Andy140491
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 11:34

So say if I were to take dissie cannons on my raiders, say 2 x 10 warriors and raider.

2 x 4 haywire scourges?

1 maybe two talos, 2 Razorwings, and a Succubus leading grots in a WWP?
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 11:47

I'd be tempted to take dark lances wherever you can, so on both razorwings and the raiders. I know why you're thinking dissies but if you can't get stuff out of rhinos/razorbacks/chimera etc then they're ineffective (also if you're shooting a squad in a ruin, they'll still get a 4+ cover save). You'd be surprised how many lances you need (and the potential with them being S8 is that if you can get a shot off into his HQ, you stand a good chance of killing him instantly, which will annoy the hell out of them - I used this tactic against an opponent recently, he failed his look out sir roll (on a 1) then his invulnerable save too - Warlord kill from one shot)

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Andy140491
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 13:58

So even with all the haywire blasters from a unit of scourges, and the talos, combined with a dark lances from Razorwings, you'd still think I'd need more?
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 14:15

Problem is that even if you load your maximum of HWBs, you will need some lances. Lance can explode a vehicle in one shot. HWB cannot. Lance can kill Termies. HWB hardly. Lance can kill MCs, HWB hardly. But there are some targets that Lance is useless for and HWB dominates. Mixing is the key IMHO.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 14:26

Well scourges should average 2 hull points per turn from 4 shots (2.2 but I don't see the point in decimals... lol! ) They're then going to need backup to actually kill anything but lightweight vehicles (not taking into account any saving of those shots by jink).

You'll need your Talos to support one of them, leaving the other without any support on turn 1 (assuming both scourge units start on the board, if not then AT becomes even more variable and dependant on you getting reserves in).

You then can't rely on everything being at full strength next time round so yes, I'd still take dark lances on the raiders - they're all adding to weight of fire, which is what brings units down. one shot blowing something up is great, but the odds really are against it - for example...

Let's look at a fairly average vehicle, chimera and assume you hit the front armour of 12.

Using dark lances, the odds of blowing it up are:
2/3 chance to hit
2/3 chance to pen
1/6 chance to explode.

or in other words, you'll only get 1 explosion in 13-14 shots.

Compare that to glancing it to death

2/3 chance to hit
1/2 chance to at least glance
x3 to remove all hull points

you'll reduce the vehicle to 0 hull points with 9 lance shots.

Of course the above figures rely on the vehicle having no cover save, but as that affects both situations equally it's only really a factor in multiplying both by the same amount.

Incidentally that's also why haywire is better - on the same basis
2/3 chance to hit
5/6 chance to remove a hull point

means a 5/9 chance to remove a hull point, so removing 3 only needs about 5 shots (less if they're twin linked)

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Andy140491
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 14:37

I get mixing is key but that was my point. I'll have anti tank through scourges, Razorwings, talos, and possible a dark lance from a raider. Do I not lack anti MEQ though? I just thought if my raiders with my Kabalite warriors are aiming for troops, then surely the dissie cannon will fair that role much better?
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 14:54

Dark Lances do both Anti Tank and Anti marine (they're not horde killers but against marines you won't be facing hordes) Dissies by comparison suffer in an anti tank role as they can only glance AV11.

Assuming your opponent doesn't bring tanks, those dark lances will still kill marines, and combined with fire from the warriors on the raiders you'll still cause a decent number of wounds (a raider gunboat with splinter racks should cause 8-9 wounds on marines, killing 3. Double that up and add in 2 lance shots and there's not much left of an entire squad.

I know it's a weird concept to get your head around, but it's actually easier to kill marines through forcing them to take a lot of saves than it is taking weapons that ignore their armour (though a court full of medusae is a wonderful thing to have if you want to tailor!)

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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 15:15

Just a quick thought on the lances on raiders. Don't forget that a lot of the time you will be jinking your boats so the dissident might be a viable option for units that will draw a lot of fire and will prob be snap firing a lot of the time (or exploding in which case the 5 points are wastes anyway). Some good advice from the guys above Smile

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Andy140491
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 15:40

I'll definitely give it a go. I appreciate the help Smile

So say if I take an archon, 4 madusae WWP

4 grots and maybe a Succubus with archite glaive in raider.

2 x 10 warriors with splinter cannons and dark lances.

2 x 4 haywire scourges.

2 Razorwing jetfighters with Dark lances.

Maybe a talos pain engine or 2? Or go for the Void raven?
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 15:49

I'd go Talos over Voidraven.

If you're struggling for points, take splinter racks in preference to splinter cannons on raiders

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Andy140491
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 16:11

I'd probably prefer the talos. But I'd just be worried about them being slower? I love the talos model too Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Thu Oct 30 2014, 16:38

5 of the 6 missions require you to hold objectives. 4 of those 5 you're likely to be able to place the Talos within a couple of turns movement of one at worst. If he's not in range, don't forget he can move 6" and still fire his weapon as if stationary, so even if your opponent doesn't move anything forwards (see previous comments about objectives) he's gonna be in their deployment zone by the end of the game.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Fri Oct 31 2014, 16:46

Andy, lets try this - so given the list you just wrote, imagine you are going again some list you are likely to face and imagine what you are going to deploy, what will you place in reserve. And how your T1 will look like. And how your opponent's T1 will look like if he wins the initiative...
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Andy140491
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PostSubject: Re: Help Carve my 1500 point list out of this!   Fri Oct 31 2014, 17:49

Yeaaahhh i wouldnt really have alot on the table turn one really :/ man this is so much harder then i thought!

does anyone have any suggestions, given what i bought, on what they would include in a 1500 point list???
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