HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityFAQUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share
 

 Shredders

Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
bveazey
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 59
Join date : 2013-06-24

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 13:58

Has anyone tried running shredders since the new codex? I think they look good on paper.
Back to top Go down
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

Posts : 7294
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 14:02

@bveazey wrote:
Has anyone tried running shredders since the new codex?  I think they look good on paper.

Still no good in my opinion. Too short a range and still a small blast. Shred was a step in the right direction but they either needed to be template or have longer range and/or large blast.

_________________
Shredders YhBv3Wk
You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
The_Burning_Eye
Trueborn
The_Burning_Eye

Posts : 2501
Join date : 2012-01-16
Location : Rutland - UK

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 14:12

Template was a huge missed opportunity for them in my mind. Shred is ok, but at S6 they shouldn't struggle to wound most things anyway so hitting more stuff was the obvious alternative in my mind.

_________________
Tan? You're joking, I'm a gamer, you're lucky I'm wearing deodorant!

My Blog - The Burning Eye Blog (check it out - comments always welcome)

My Project Log - Visions of the Burning Eye

My Gaming Log - Chronicles of the Burning Eye

My Club - MAD Wargaming

My Fluff - Kabal of the Burning Eye, Cult of the Shadowed Blade and Coven of Distorted Perfection
Back to top Go down
http://theburningeye.blogspot.com
Massaen
Klaivex
Massaen

Posts : 2268
Join date : 2011-07-05
Location : Western Australia

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 14:15

they look great on paper... and the model is nice and reminiscent of the warp spider weapons... but that's the best look they have... pass on them in every instance

_________________
Objective Secured - Western Australia's Premier 40k Event Organisers and Website
OBJECTIVE SECURED
Back to top Go down
http://objectivesecured.com.au/
Unholyllama
Sybarite
Unholyllama

Posts : 267
Join date : 2013-08-27

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 14:46

Shredders aren't bad ifyou find yourself running up against a heavy infantry list; however, even then I wouldn't run them.

Personal preference - I try not to run AP- weapons unless my options are extremely limited or there's some other affect that compensates. S6 AP- Blast, from my experiences, will generate less wounds than bolters within rapid fire range.
Back to top Go down
Anterzhul
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 125
Join date : 2013-05-13

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 14:51

@Unholyllama wrote:
S6 AP- Blast, from my experiences, will generate less wounds than bolters within rapid fire range.  

If you are hitting T4 models, the shredder outperforms the bolter even if hitting only a single model, unless that model has a 5+ save
Against T3 the bolter is superior all round, albeit slightly (again assuming the shredder only lands 1 hit, which is usually the case)
Back to top Go down
False Son
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 60
Join date : 2012-12-23

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 14:54

Agreed on the template. One of the largest drawbacks to me is the lack of Overwatch. It isn't a terrible weapon. The problem is that it is so inferior to Blasters. A shame, too. I really prefer the Shredder gun part to the Blaster.
Back to top Go down
Unholyllama
Sybarite
Unholyllama

Posts : 267
Join date : 2013-08-27

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 14:56

@Anterzhul wrote:
@Unholyllama wrote:
S6 AP- Blast, from my experiences, will generate less wounds than bolters within rapid fire range.  

If you are hitting T4 models, the shredder outperforms the bolter even if hitting only a single model, unless that model has a 5+ save
Against T3 the bolter is superior all round, albeit slightly (again assuming the shredder only lands 1 hit, which is usually the case)

Probability-wise - this is true but from my own experiences, I'd rather remove the chance for my opponent to make a save. That's more personal preference though.
Back to top Go down
Anterzhul
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 125
Join date : 2013-05-13

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 14:59

@Unholyllama wrote:


Probability-wise - this is true but from my own experiences, I'd rather remove the chance for my opponent to make a save.  That's more personal preference though.

Yep, same here

Also, the blaster is superior starting from 4+ save, but eliminating probability, alongside the chance of instakilling Tau suits and the like, as well as vehicle and MC(Not that DE have such a hard time with those) hunting capabilities probably cause everyone to always pick the blaster over the shredder

If only it was template...
Back to top Go down
Klaivex Charondyr
Wych
Klaivex Charondyr

Posts : 918
Join date : 2014-09-08

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 15:06

Actually I will never understand why a monofile weapon didnt get the "monofile" rule like every other single Eldar monofile weapon.
Back to top Go down
The_Burning_Eye
Trueborn
The_Burning_Eye

Posts : 2501
Join date : 2012-01-16
Location : Rutland - UK

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 15:14

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Actually I will never understand why a monofile weapon didnt get the "monofile" rule like every other single Eldar monofile weapon.

My guess (ok, hope!) would be that it might be an early indicator as to what might happen in the eldar codex when it's updated.

_________________
Tan? You're joking, I'm a gamer, you're lucky I'm wearing deodorant!

My Blog - The Burning Eye Blog (check it out - comments always welcome)

My Project Log - Visions of the Burning Eye

My Gaming Log - Chronicles of the Burning Eye

My Club - MAD Wargaming

My Fluff - Kabal of the Burning Eye, Cult of the Shadowed Blade and Coven of Distorted Perfection
Back to top Go down
http://theburningeye.blogspot.com
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

Posts : 7294
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 15:18

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Actually I will never understand why a monofile weapon didnt get the "monofile" rule like every other single Eldar monofile weapon.

My guess (ok, hope!) would be that it might be an early indicator as to what might happen in the eldar codex when it's updated.

More like they don't want us to just be carbon copies of the 'real' Eldar.

I'd be perfectly happy with the stats as they are but just make it a template weapon.

_________________
Shredders YhBv3Wk
You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
bveazey
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 59
Join date : 2013-06-24

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 16:24

they are much cheaper than blasters though. Im just concerned that with the heavy shift in our FA slots toward being AT we might be able to save some points and dedicate warriors to being solely AI. Shooting 1 blaster at a tank is wasting up to 8 poisoned shots
Back to top Go down
krayd
Wych
krayd

Posts : 764
Join date : 2011-10-03
Location : Richmond, VA

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 16:50

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Actually I will never understand why a monofile weapon didnt get the "monofile" rule like every other single Eldar monofile weapon.

My guess (ok, hope!) would be that it might be an early indicator as to what might happen in the eldar codex when it's updated.

More like they don't want us to just be carbon copies of the 'real' Eldar.

I'd be perfectly happy with the stats as they are but just make it a template weapon.

The current design philosophy seems to be to try to replace as many weird codex-specific rules with USRs as much as possible. With that in mind, it does seem possible that Warp Spiders will get similar treatment in the future.
Back to top Go down
False Son
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 60
Join date : 2012-12-23

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 17:23

@bveazey wrote:
they are much cheaper than blasters though.  Im just concerned that with the heavy shift in our FA slots toward being AT we might be able to save some points and dedicate warriors to being solely AI.  Shooting 1 blaster at a tank is wasting up to 8 poisoned shots

While this is true, that one (or two, if you're going double dark light) shot can kill a tank that is easily worth that other 8 Splinter Rifle shots. You lose that ability with the Shredder, although you could tear off a hull point. The Blaster gets away with being able to kill tanks, MEQs and TEQs and put hurt of MCs with ease. The Shredder can't really work as AT and certainly lacks against TEQs or MCs.

In fact, it doesn't even work that well as an AI weapon. Short ranged is one thing. Small blast is another. Taken together that gun better have... nope, bad AP. It just doesn't justify bringing the Kabalites needed to field one, much less plan their moves around using the Shredder. It might be moreso with Shredderborn, but how many people are signing up for that?
Back to top Go down
Thor665
Archon
Thor665

Posts : 5526
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 17:43

This thread really beautifully covers a lot of the issues with the Shredder.

_________________
Shredders K93hWhs
Shredders L1RsnGX
The Title Troupe! - Nom fellow posters for custom titles.
Back to top Go down
krayd
Wych
krayd

Posts : 764
Join date : 2011-10-03
Location : Richmond, VA

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 17:51

Well, let's do some quick math for trueborn vs. marines. 4 blasters vs. 4 shredders.

4 blasters.
4 shots.
2.67 hits.
2.22 wounds.
2.22 dead marines.

4 shredders.
4 shots.
12 hits (assuming you can get 3 marines under each blast template on average, which shouldn't be that difficult, but number can be more or less, depending on circumstances).
10 wounds.
3.33 dead marines.

Of course, the blasters' AT capabilities make them a far more versatile choice.
Back to top Go down
Anterzhul
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 125
Join date : 2013-05-13

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 17:54

Getting 3 marines under a single blast template consistently is wishful thinking though...

_________________
Sadistic space elves on drugs using poisoned whips and flying around in Jabba the Hutt slave barges... What's not to like?
Back to top Go down
Klaivex Charondyr
Wych
Klaivex Charondyr

Posts : 918
Join date : 2014-09-08

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 18:03

Quote :
12 hits (assuming you can get 3 marines under each blast template on average, which shouldn't be that difficult, but number can be more or less, depending on circumstances).

If you assume that your opponent has a brain you can calculate 1 hit each. Maybe 2 for a lucky scatter.
You have to place the template over the base, radius is 1,5", Squad coherency is 2"
Back to top Go down
krayd
Wych
krayd

Posts : 764
Join date : 2011-10-03
Location : Richmond, VA

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 18:09

In my experience, relatively few players consciously try to maintain a strict maximum 2" coherency in order to minimize blast template effects. I suppose that they may be more likely to pay closer attention to this in a tournament setting, however.
Back to top Go down
False Son
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 60
Join date : 2012-12-23

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 18:53

@krayd wrote:
Well, let's do some quick math for trueborn vs. marines. 4 blasters vs. 4 shredders.

This is also cherrypicking the results a bit, IMO.  You are ignoring the need to get within 12 inches to the use the Shredder.  And you are ignoring the inability to use blast weapons in snap shots (that's still a thing in 7th, right?  I'm not going crazy...)

And it isn't enough just to throw some marines in the mix.  There are other scenarios other than perfectly landed Shredder shots vs MEQs.  If IEQs were in here we'd certainly agree Shredders were the better weapon, but that would be obvious.  What about against big based multi wound models like Grots or Nids?  What about TEQs?  Or, what about when the footprint of the squad is small enough that the scatter dice are not kind?  Against a single target the Shredders produce 4 hits which are inferior to the Blaster's 4 hits.  It isn't just one result in a vaacuum, or even one situation you are most likely to run into.  When people weigh the pros and cons of one weapon vs another they have to take in the total spectrum of strengths and weaknesses.

With all that said, Shredderborn are the only way I would consider them.  I'd prefer to have an additional Splinter Rifle on my Kabalites than a Shredder.  I want them to sit on objectives and poke targets, not go running into rapid fire range.  When they go to ground I want every gun, no matter how small a chance to be able to return fire.  I likewise want every gun I pay for to get a chance to send another enemy model to his grave before charging me.  The Shredder asks me to risk too much for a performance that is unpredictable and niche.  At least with a Flamer on a SM squad I know that template is going to deny cover and will burn things.  I can plan around that.  A Shredder asks me to get close, target a clump of models and hope that a die roll with 1/3 a chance of hitting where intended performs.  

Now, if an Archon could have one...
Back to top Go down
perhow
Hellion
perhow

Posts : 44
Join date : 2013-06-10

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 19:31

Don't forget though shredders are 5 pts now. 5 is pretty cheap. And gives a bit of versatility because they have a reasonable chance of taking Hull points off rear armour. If I had actually modelled any I might take them.
Back to top Go down
Thor665
Archon
Thor665

Posts : 5526
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 19:38

@krayd wrote:
In my experience, relatively few players consciously try to maintain a strict maximum 2" coherency in order to minimize blast template effects. I suppose that they may be more likely to pay closer attention to this in a tournament setting, however.
They do.

Also, you aren't taking scatter into account, which is a *big* effect versus blast weapons.
Even if all we o is say all of them hit and all of them hit 2 models each - suddenly the quality of the weapons is tied vs. MEQ, whilst Blasters remain superior in multiple other occurrences.

What if, of the 4 blasts, 1 hits 3, 2 hit 2, and one misses altogether? (a not bad set of results in most people's minds, I would think) Now you're doing 1.94 dead Marines. And Blasters still remain superior in other situations.

However, the big issue is this;
Shredders kill infantry and, with Shred, are good at killing infantry with high toughness and low armor saves.
So do splinter weapons.
Y'know, those weapons that *everyone* in our army basically has?
The ones we can spam on accident?
So, basically our entire army is pretty good at the job of Shredders.
But we can pay to get something with questionable range and scatter effects to help us do it.
Or we can pay a bit more for an assault lance weapon that is good versus things splinter weapons can't harm.

That's really the core issue.

_________________
Shredders K93hWhs
Shredders L1RsnGX
The Title Troupe! - Nom fellow posters for custom titles.
Back to top Go down
False Son
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 60
Join date : 2012-12-23

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 20:14

@perhow wrote:
Don't forget though shredders are 5 pts now. 5 is pretty cheap.  And gives a bit of versatility because they have a reasonable chance of taking Hull points off rear armour. If I had actually modelled any I might take them.

It isn't just rear armor. Rhinos, Vypers, other DE skimmers... they don't like Mr. Shredder. Not the best tactical choice, though. If you absolutely have to, ok. Kabalites without dark light don't really have another response. I think you hit the nail on the head as to why to take it. Small investment to take out small fry vehicles with a small loss in overall range and firepower. I could also see it in one of those weird tactical situations we've run into where it is better to charge a target than shoot them with Splinter Rifles.
Back to top Go down
Crazy_Irish
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 494
Join date : 2011-05-28
Location : Huntsville, Al

Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 20:25

@Anterzhul wrote:
Getting 3 marines under a single blast template consistently is wishful thinking though...

One can say the he same thing about marines that are not in cover, especially when they are up to 18" away ;-)

I consider the shredder an interesting option, I guess not very competitive, but I like the idea that the shredder can be used for AT and AI. Sure the shot has to go against the rear to have an OK chance but in times of secure DS that should not be a problem and after Thor665 talked about the shredder on Splintermind 3.5 I'm even more sure that I will escort my archon with shredder born! I know, crazy - but then again, that's my name ;-)


_________________
...What about a Bastion made out of Guardsmen as some form of sick sarcasm?...Or a Fortress of Redemption made out of Dark Angels - Sky Serpent
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




Shredders Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shredders   Shredders I_icon_minitime

Back to top Go down
 
Shredders
Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

COMMORRAGH TACTICA

 :: Drukhari Tactics
-
Jump to: