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Kahnartiste
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PostSubject: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Sun Oct 26 2014, 18:48

Hey guys, quick questions.

If I am doing a Real Space Raiders as my primary detachment, and want to use Dark Artisan as my coven detachment/formation (I dont know which of those it counts as actually), do I need to adhere to the Covenite Coterie FOC where I would additionally need 2 (more) HQs and 2 elites or can I just take the DA since its its own thing. Also, can I take 2 DA detachments at the same time in addition to say, RSR and an allied eldar detachment?

Basically, can I take multiples of the same formation/detachment (2 or 3 scalpel squads, [so 4-6 unites of wracks DS in venoms turn 1] etc)
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Sun Oct 26 2014, 20:05

@Kahnartiste wrote:
Hey guys, quick questions.

If I am doing a Real Space Raiders as my primary detachment, and want to use Dark Artisan as my coven detachment/formation (I dont know which of those it counts as actually), do I need to adhere to the Covenite Coterie FOC where I would additionally need 2 (more) HQs and 2 elites or can I just take the DA since its its own thing.
You can just take the Dark Artisan and it will use the rules, PfP, and other relevant changes from the Haem supplement.

@Kahnartiste wrote:
Also, can I take 2 DA detachments at the same time in addition to say, RSR and an allied eldar detachment?
Yes.

@Kahnartiste wrote:
Basically, can I take multiples of the same formation/detachment (2 or 3 scalpel squads, [so 4-6 unites of wracks DS in venoms turn 1] etc)
Yes.
As long as you meet the requirements for fielding the formation/detachment you can then do so again as many times as you like and points will allow.

Some events have limits though - if going to a tournament check with your TO to be safe.

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Kahnartiste
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Sun Oct 26 2014, 21:30

awesome thanks!

I'm brand new to wh and got really depressed when I saw another post on here that most official tourneys only allow 2 detachments total. Would that mean lets say, if I brought a CAD and elder allies, that would be all most TO's would allow, and I couldn't take any formations like DA in addition to the CAD W/ allies? Sees like that really gimps DE in particular
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Sun Oct 26 2014, 22:17

@Kahnartiste wrote:
awesome thanks!

I'm brand new to wh and got really depressed when I saw another post on here that most official tourneys only allow 2 detachments total. Would that mean lets say, if I brought a CAD and elder allies, that would be all most TO's would allow, and I couldn't take any formations like DA in addition to the CAD W/ allies? Sees like that really gimps DE in particular

At the moment I think that would be correct but I do foresee if changing in the future as formations, dataslates etc become more commonplace. Reece from Frontline Gaming wrote an article recently about detachments, formations etc so it may be that he's having a rethink on the BAO and LVO rules on that subject.

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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Mon Oct 27 2014, 00:45

The formations are a strange issue. Some are quite large and some are fairly small; Dark Artisian being of the later. One of the reasons that most only allow for two detachments are some of the larger more powerful formations. The tau firecadre or whatever its called is the big offender. You would not want two of those, it would be possible then to see five riptides. Its also a fairly sizable formation and has some insane rules that go with it.

Personally I think there should be a point limit to formations and keep to a single cad.

That being said, I have been running the Dark Artisian formation latley and its a real winner. Get a WWP on the Haemoculous, spirit probe on the coronos and whatever you want on the talos. That thing mows down units.
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Mon Oct 27 2014, 13:37

One thing to keep in mind with the Dark Artisian formation is that each time you field it, it's 3 victory points to the enemy if you play a mission like Purge the Alien, where VPs are awarded for completely wiping out units. It is a very hard unit to kill but it is still something worth noting.
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Sun Nov 02 2014, 17:17

I can confirm that I have been chatting to Reece about exactly that issue a couple of weeks ago Count
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Mon Nov 03 2014, 18:10

@Unholyllama wrote:
One thing to keep in mind with the Dark Artisian formation is that each time you field it, it's 3 victory points to the enemy if you play a mission like Purge the Alien, where VPs are awarded for completely wiping out units.  It is a very hard unit to kill but it is still something worth noting.

Might I ask where it says that? In the formation entry, it says they're a single unit, is the only reason I ask.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Mon Nov 03 2014, 18:36

Page 48, 'Combined Units'.

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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Mon Nov 03 2014, 19:01

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Unholyllama wrote:
One thing to keep in mind with the Dark Artisian formation is that each time you field it, it's 3 victory points to the enemy if you play a mission like Purge the Alien, where VPs are awarded for completely wiping out units.  It is a very hard unit to kill but it is still something worth noting.

Might I ask where it says that? In the formation entry, it says they're a single unit, is the only reason I ask.

What Thor said. Page 48 under "combined units". It explicitly calls out the Dark Artisan formation too.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Mon Nov 03 2014, 20:50

Ah, ok, I see. But they have to destroy all the units to get credit for any of them. Some other formations sort of blur the line there, too. Like the corpsethief claw formation - it has 5 Talos in a unit that normally only allows a maximum of 3. Does that mean it's a combination of 2 units, or just 1 unit that has been granted an exception to the normal model limit?

I would think the latter, but I don't know what would stop someone from arguing the former.

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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Mon Nov 03 2014, 21:01

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Ah, ok, I see. But they have to destroy all the units to get credit for any of them. Some other formations sort of blur the line there, too. Like the corpsethief claw formation - it has 5 Talos in a unit that normally only allows a maximum of 3. Does that mean it's a combination of 2 units, or just 1 unit that has been granted an exception to the normal model limit?

I would think the latter, but I don't know what would stop someone from arguing the former.

That is just a single unit and would give 1VP when defeated.

A non-DE example of this would be the Ork Green Tide formation from the Waaagh Ghazghkull supplement. It's a Warboss and 10 units of boyz. They form a single, giant unit that awards 11VPs when fully defeated. This is because you take multiple different units and turn them into 1.

So like Dark Artisan, you are taking 3 different units (Haemy, Talos, and a Chronos) and forming 1 unit. Hence the 3 VPs after you defeat all of them.

Other formations within the Coven Supplement are not combining units into larger super units (the talos one is just increasing the unit max size) and so award kill points whenever a unit within the formation dies.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Mon Nov 03 2014, 23:32

Yeah, like I said, that would be my interpretation, but...if someone wanted to argue it, they could say:

One changes the unit number, the other changes the unit composition. Both are different from the standard allowed unit, so what actual rule stops one from being effected by that rule, and not the other?

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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 03:59

The Corpsethief question is actually very clear to my eyes - the formation states it is formed from one unit that is allowed to take (and also must take) 5 models.

A 5 model unit is still a single unit and nothing suggests otherwise in the rules, and the rules on pg. 48 also do not apply.

So 1 VP for a Corpsethief

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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 13:32

I agree, but it's debateable, and I've yet to see anything that would definitively disprove someone claiming it should be 2 VPs. The dark artisan formation specifically says it's one unit, yet is specifically defined in the combined units rule as being a combination unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 13:37

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
I agree, but it's debateable, and I've yet to see anything that would definitively disprove someone claiming it should be 2 VPs. The dark artisan formation specifically says it's one unit, yet is specifically defined in the combined units rule as being a combination unit.

Except Dark Artisan has a rule that specifically says it is worth more VP's than would be the normal case for a single unit. Corpsethief does not have such an exception therefore it's worth 1, same as any other unit.

Dark Artisan is three units in one (IC, and 2 MC's, it is then ruled specifically that for VP purposes it's one per constituent unit). Corpsethief is explicitly one unit, but the maximum unit size threshold is altered, it's not 1 unit of 3 and 1 unit of 2 Talos joined together, it's one unit of five.

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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 13:52

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Except Dark Artisan has a rule that specifically says it is worth more VP's than would be the normal case for a single unit.

Read it again. The relevent rule is on page 48, and cites Dark Artisan as an example, but is clearly not limited to dark artisan. The dark artisan formation itself has no additional rules in regards to this issue that I could find, other than that it is treated as a single unit. If you're taking a position otherwise, please cite page numbers or give us direct quotes.

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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 13:58

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Except Dark Artisan has a rule that specifically says it is worth more VP's than would be the normal case for a single unit.

Read it again. The relevent rule is on page 48, and cites Dark Artisan as an example, but is clearly not limited to dark artisan. The dark artisan formation itself has no additional rules in regards to this issue that I could find, other than that it is treated as a single unit. If you're taking a position otherwise, please cite page numbers or give us direct quotes.

Apologies, I don't have my books with me at work.

The point stands though - Dark Artisan is three units moving and fighting as one, the corpsethief is one unit with an amended limit on numbers of models

I'd also say it's semantics to argue that Dark Artisan doesn't have a rule that specifically mentions it, even if it may apply to other units

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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 14:16

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Except Dark Artisan has a rule that specifically says it is worth more VP's than would be the normal case for a single unit.

Read it again. The relevent rule is on page 48, and cites Dark Artisan as an example, but is clearly not limited to dark artisan. The dark artisan formation itself has no additional rules in regards to this issue that I could find, other than that it is treated as a single unit. If you're taking a position otherwise, please cite page numbers or give us direct quotes.

Dark Artisan has a special rule, listed under special rules, that indicates that it is a combined unit.

Quote :
Follow Me, My Children!: All units in this Formation must be fielded as a single unit, even though this is not normally allowed. Models with the Independent Character special rule cannot join this unit.

The Corpsethief Claw does not have any such rule listed under special rules.

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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 15:28

@Count Adhemar wrote:

The Corpsethief Claw does not have any such rule listed under special rules.

Doesn't it?

Covens Book wrote:

The unit of Talos must include 5 models, even though this is not normally allowed.

All units in this Formation must be fielded as a single unit, even though this is not normally allowed.

The two rules above are very similar. One is from the corpsthief formation, and the other from the dark artisan formation. Both specify to do something that is normally not allowed on the datasheet for the units in question. One is combining 2 different unit types, while the other is using models in excess of the allowed number from the same unit type, but the unit datasheet says that you may only have up to 3 models in that unit. Thus, it is arguable that the additional 2 models must therefore constitute a second unit, and qualifies this formation as a combined unit.

Now, as I said from the beginning, I'm not making that argument. I'm simply saying it's arguable. So, if you think you're arguing/debating this, you're arguing with yourself. Unless, of course, you're arguing with me about it being arguable, in which case, that means you're losing. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 15:34

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:

The Corpsethief Claw does not have any such rule listed under special rules.

Doesn't it?

No it doesn't. You'll note that I specifically said 'listed under special rules'. The Dark Artisans have the Follow Me, My Children! special rule but the Corpsethief Claws do not have any relevant special rules. The comment that "The unit of Talos must include 5 models, even though this is not normally allowed." comes under the heading of Restrictions, not special rules.

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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 15:35

Another way of looking at this is looking at the number of units the formation is composed of. The Dark Artisans has 3 separate units listed while the Corpsethief Claw only has a single unit listed.

All other supplements that yield the "are fielded as 1 unit" typeof formations all field multiple units for the formation and then have a separate special rule that combine them. Just like the Dark Artisan.
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 15:39

The corpsethief is not two units, and the quote you provide makes that quite clear, 'The unit of Talos must include 5 models...'

Unit is a singular term, and therefore cannot refer to more than 1.

The corpsethief is therefore 1 unit and anyone who tries to argue otherwise (appreciate you are not trying to make this point) might as well try and argue that the Archon uses the rules for a Succubus.

(just to reinforce this, if there were more than one unit making up the corpsethief, it would have to read something like this: 'The units of Talos in this formation must be fielded as a single unit, and must contain a total of 5 Talos models').

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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 16:45

@Betray - It's only arguable by ignoring the formation composition and what that means though.

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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Dark Artisan Formations?   Tue Nov 04 2014, 21:52

@Thor665 wrote:
@Betray - It's only arguable by ignoring the formation composition and what that means though.

You don't have to ignore anything. If a formation tells you to take 9 Talos as a single unit, even though this is normally not allowed, it's telling you to take multiple units of Talos, but count them as a single unit for the formation's purposes.

Reading it that way isn't ignoring anything. As a matter of fact, assuming that because the models are the same unit type, the "Combined Units" rule doesn't apply to them is ignoring the wording of the "Combined Units" rule.

It doesn't say "combine several different unit types together into a single unit". It refers to combining ANY units together. And that would include two units of the exact same type.

Again, not making the argument that the corpsthief claw is a combined unit. Just saying that it's arguable. There is no definitive, clear rule that says otherwise.

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
The corpsethief is not two units, and the quote you provide makes that quite clear, 'The unit of Talos must include 5 models...'

Unit is a singular term, and therefore cannot refer to more than 1.

The other one says it's counted as one unit too. I'm not asking you to infer anything. If your argument requires such, please don't make it. I'm looking for clear, concise wording that says one way or the other, and it doesn't exist. That's all I've been saying this entire conversation.

Basically, in summary, GW sucks at writing.

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