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 enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase

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MauxMauxandthe0minomicon
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PostSubject: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Fri Oct 24 2014, 14:07

If I understand this correctly, when a unit embarks on transport they are then considered to be a part of the transport unit.

My question would be, should an eight man Scourge w/ 4 HWB and 4 ShardCarbine declare an attack against a Land Raider with Space Marines inside, and resolving the HWB shooting results in a forced disembarking, would the shard carbines get resolved against the Space Marines or are instead lost as the original target, the Land Raider, was destroyed prior.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Fri Oct 24 2014, 14:12

The Shardcarbine shots would be wasted as the Scourges could only target the Land Raider.

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MauxMauxandthe0minomicon
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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Fri Oct 24 2014, 14:30

Thank you for the clarification and swift response.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Fri Oct 24 2014, 14:56

The unit is considered embarked, but not "part of" the transport unit.
They are two different concepts.
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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Fri Oct 24 2014, 21:22

Because all the shooting happens simultaneously you play it as mentioned above, they all shoot at the Land Raider. But you're allowed to charge the marines inside after you wreck the transport.

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MauxMauxandthe0minomicon
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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Sat Oct 25 2014, 14:41

Cheers,
laughingfish you've preemptively answered what would have been my next question. This makes, in this instance, the Scourges having access to the ap3 +1S of the charging Power lance and their grenades not go to complete waste as they seek some shelter from the Dakka.

And to Squidmaster, i'll keep a better distinction of the two.
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Mr. Ghoti
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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Sun Oct 26 2014, 17:26

I just played a game where a guy's knight errant blew up my raider with its cannon and then proceeded to shoot the stubber at the disembarked models. I told him he could not do that as they were not a valid target at his time of shooting, but he assured me that as they were a separate unit and he is a superheavy, he could. was I wrong?
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Mon Oct 27 2014, 11:21

@Mr. Ghoti wrote:
I just played a game where a guy's knight errant blew up my raider with its cannon and then proceeded to shoot the stubber at the disembarked models. I told him he could not do that as they were not a valid target at his time of shooting, but he assured me that as they were a separate unit and he is a superheavy, he could. was I wrong?

I'd say you were right, the argument about them being a separate unit is irrelevant as all the weapons are considered to fire simultaneously, and therefore the troops wouldn't have been out of the raider when the stubber was shooting.

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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Mon Oct 27 2014, 14:01

also, you must declare all targets of a super heavy for shooting prior to rolling any dice - you can't fire 1 gun, view the result then select another target for the next weapon based on this.

You declare all targets then resolve them in any chosen order

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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Mon Oct 27 2014, 14:17

@Laughingcarp wrote:
Because all the shooting happens simultaneously you play it as mentioned above, they all shoot at the Land Raider. But you're allowed to charge the marines inside after you wreck the transport.

Could somebody point me to the BRB page for this? This comes up all the time in my gaming group and we've always played it to where they could not assault the contents of the transports.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Mon Oct 27 2014, 14:25

@merse24 wrote:
@Laughingcarp wrote:
Because all the shooting happens simultaneously you play it as mentioned above, they all shoot at the Land Raider. But you're allowed to charge the marines inside after you wreck the transport.

Could somebody point me to the BRB page for this?  This comes up all the time in my gaming group and we've always played it to where they could not assault the contents of the transports.

Bizarrely, it's under the "Effect of Damage on Passengers" in the Transports section of the vehicle rules.

Quote :
If a Transport is destroyed by a shooting attack, any unit that shot it that turn can, if allowed, charge the now disembarked passengers.

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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Mon Oct 27 2014, 18:43

I believe with superheavies you CAN complete the action as described. It is a similar rules interaction as split fire. Namely: you nominate All your targets prior to firing any weapons, so you can choose to fire the cannon at a target & the stubber at a different target, that target may be the contents of a transport if you're hoping to destroy said transport as part of that unit's shooting attack. If the transport is not destroyed, the held shots are wasted.

I.E. the multiple battle-cannon may target the raider & the heavy stubber may nominate the squad inside. If the MBC fails, he stubber's shots are wasted.

I don't believe the rules are clear on this however. I have previously had a similar question when someone with a mixed unit containing a plasmagun held their plasma until later - As determining targets, wounds & allocation, as well as saves, all happen on a weapon pool by weapon pool basis, a player could nominate to rapidfire bolters, determine how many casualties were drawn, prior to determining whether to risk rapidfiring the squad's plasmagun.... Previously, all weapons had to be declared prior to making rolls, but I believe that 7th editions' rules preclude the "all shots happen at the same time" argument that used to exist.
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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Mon Oct 27 2014, 20:47

If you read the rules for shooting though, the weapons are still fired all at one time. All targets are chosen in step 2 and you have to be able to see the unit you choose (so you can't choose models in a transport because you can't see them), then you go through picking a weapon and rolling the hits and wounds, but you don't start the entire process back over after finishing that weapon and get to pick a target again. You only repeat the steps starting from number 3 which is selecting a weapon.
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Garion
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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Mon Oct 27 2014, 23:35

Super Heavy Vehicles (and Super Heavy Walkers, like the Imperial Knights) can shoot each weapons at differents targets if they so desire

Basically they can do all the steps ofthe shooting phase for each one of their weapons and so target your Rider with one weapon and then, if the raider is destroied, target the disembarked passengers with a second weapon
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Tue Oct 28 2014, 01:12

For those that are arguing for the ability to target a unit escaping from a destroyed transport, can we please see a rule that confirms your belief?

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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Tue Oct 28 2014, 01:22

Page 31 at the top has the following bold type: All of the models in the unit that are firing the selected weapon shoot at the same time.

Super Heavies get to target multiple units as per their rules. That doesn't specify how to do so. It also doesn't say it alters the timing of all weapons firing at the same time.

The Shooting Sequence step 2 isn't quoted, but it has a nice mechanic built in.

If this was 6th I'd say the super heavy weapons all fire at the same time... But it appears that just the weapons fire at the same time. While I don't like it, I think Super Heavies can indeed fire on the guys inside if the transport gets destroyed by an earlier weapon.

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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Tue Oct 28 2014, 01:53

@lessthanjeff wrote:
If you read the rules for shooting though, the weapons are still fired all at one time.  All targets are chosen in step 2 and you have to be able to see the unit you choose (so you can't choose models in a transport because you can't see them), then you go through picking a weapon and rolling the hits and wounds, but you don't start the entire process back over after finishing that weapon and get to pick a target again.  You only repeat the steps starting from number 3 which is selecting a weapon.
I think this is the right reading of the rules: a unit pick all it's target at once during the shooting phase.
If the super-heavy would count as to units, than he could target the contents with his second unit.

I don't get it why people want to buff shooting, as it is already strong in 7th.
If you kill a transport, the next unit(s) can shoot at it's contents. That's already good enough, no?

If you would try to apply the same logic to assault, it would be like first rolling the charge distance and than choosing to disorderly charge because you now see that you can make it to the second unit.
Not entirely the same but as much buffing the charge sub-phase.
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Garion
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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Tue Oct 28 2014, 07:41

The shooting phase is composed of steps that you must execute in a serial way per unit (you do the 1st step, then the 2nd, then the 3rd and so on), not in parallel (step 1 for all units, then step 2 for all units and so on). So to shoot at a different target you must begin a new sequence for the 2nd weapon AFTER yuo completed the sequence for the first weapon, like each weapon was a unit in its own

It's kind of like what Split Fire tell you to do: you first resolve the shooting sequence of the split fire guy and then resolve the shooting sequence of the other guys.

As an interesting note, in the Split Fire rule there is an explit exception that forbid you to target the passengers disembarked for a trasport destroyed by the model that split-fired: an exception is somethung that disallow (like in this case) you to do an action that you could have be done if the exceptiin wasn't there (or the other way around)

I think that if they ever get to put out FAQ for super heavies they will align them to the Split Fire rule but until then I fear that we are to deal with transports-killer Super Heavies....
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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Tue Oct 28 2014, 09:11

@Garion wrote:
The shooting phase is composed of steps that you must execute in a serial way per unit (you do the 1st step, then the 2nd, then the 3rd and so on), not in parallel (step 1 for all units, then step 2 for all units and so on). So to shoot at a different target you must begin a new sequence for the 2nd weapon AFTER yuo completed the sequence for the first weapon, like each weapon was a unit in its own

It's kind of like what Split Fire tell you to do: you first resolve the shooting sequence of the split fire guy and then resolve the shooting sequence of the other guys.

As an interesting note, in the Split Fire rule there is an explit exception that forbid you to target the passengers disembarked for a trasport destroyed by the model that split-fired: an exception is somethung that disallow (like in this case) you to do an action that you could have be done if the exceptiin wasn't there (or the other way around)

I think that if they ever get to put out FAQ for super heavies they will align them to the Split Fire rule but until then I fear that we are to deal with transports-killer Super Heavies....

I disagree, the split fire rule disallowing you from targeting a transported unit once the transport has been destroyed is a rules clarification to explain that all models fire at the same time.

Your explanation that the shooting phase is composed of steps that must be executed in a serial way per unit actually proves my point - the super heavy is one unit and therefore you must declare all its targets before resolving shooting. You cannot target the unit on the transport separately therefore the super heavy cannot shoot both the transport and the transported unit in one phase.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Tue Oct 28 2014, 09:29

I'm of the opinion that the superheavy does not have the ability to target the passengers of a transport that one of its other weapons has destroyed that turn. The Shooting Sequence seems quite clear on this. Step 2 is when you choose your target. Firing different weapons only allows you to repeat steps 3-7 for each weapon. At no time do you go back to step 2 and therefore there is no opportunity to select an embarked unit as a target. Remember, step 2 specifically says you must be able to see the target, which you cannot do if they are on a transport.

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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Fri Oct 31 2014, 09:43

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'm of the opinion that the superheavy does not have the ability to target the passengers of a transport that one of its other weapons has destroyed that turn. The Shooting Sequence seems quite clear on this. Step 2 is when you choose your target. Firing different weapons only allows you to repeat steps 3-7 for each weapon. At no time do you go back to step 2 and therefore there is no opportunity to select an embarked unit as a target. Remember, step 2 specifically says you must be able to see the target, which you cannot do if they are on a transport.

^This^ this was exactly my point I made. We went on with the game because we wanted to play, but this is the consensus I came to afterwards. He must nominate all of his targets before rolling to hit with any of them. As the models inside the transport cannot be directly targeted by any weapon, he cannot choose to target it, even if he was intending to pop the transport before resolving the stubber shots.
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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Sat Nov 01 2014, 00:55

Just to be sure I understand:

If a WWP Gunboat Raider fires his DL at a transport and destroy it, could the kabalites in the raider shoot the disembarked units?
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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Sat Nov 01 2014, 02:52

Yes, as the Raider and Kabalites are different units.

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PostSubject: Re: enemy Transports with embarked units and declared target during shooting phase   Sun Nov 02 2014, 01:42

Good thanks!
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