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Thor665
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PostSubject: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Thu Oct 23 2014, 05:44

Greetings all, Episode 3.5 is now up to discuss Troop slots and new fluff;


Sorry for the slightly delayed release this week. Partly it was due to me being out of town working for a week, and partly it was because we decided on a new Podcast home - so we're now on LibSyn. As soon as a new month heralds a bandwith reset on PodOmatic we'll post a head's up notice there to anyone who isn't on the forum that was following us, but I think LibSyn is a good home and has the right space for us to grow in it.

The old episodes will be migrating over to the new site on a brilliant pace of "when Thor has time for it" but, yeah, probably in the next few days.

That said - the current episode is there and waiting for you, huzzah!

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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Thu Oct 23 2014, 14:56

Now works in the ios podcast app, yay!

Clicking on the rss button in the lower left on an ios device will take you straight into the podcast app Cool
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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Thu Oct 23 2014, 15:44

Glad you like the new host Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Thu Oct 23 2014, 15:52

Shredders as a template would be something I could take. 5 points for one is nice, even if it would be just S5. There usually are points to spend and a unit of 10 doesn't do a lot with a blaster (since you are wasting 9 people shooting a vehicle with S1 weapons), but a template could be good. Also you can threaten assaulting units, and make the kabalites a little better at speeding up close and flush out enemies instead of staying at range all the time.

I pretty much always compare the codex to others as well as what it used to be (because I can't stop doing that), and I have to say that I am surprised because both Eldar and Orks had gained a rule to run and then shoot or assault which is something several of our units could have used. Especially Scourges with battle-focus, wyches/bloodbrides with run and charge (not to say that they aren't viable without them, but still). Would make them both more mobile and fast which no dark eldar really is in any other place than their own skimmer. Fleet helps of course, but none of our infantry are really much faster than others on their own.
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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Thu Oct 23 2014, 16:14

@Mngwa wrote:
Shredders as a template would be something I could take. 5 points for one is nice, even if it would be just S5.
Yeah, that might be a decent weapon option, though I still think I would end up taking blasters. Though, eh, maybe with some Trueborn to lay down 4 templates at once? 4 Ap- Str 5 flamers? Might not be shabby.

I agree it would make the weapon better, I'm just not sure it would even then particularly show up in lists - but that's really the point, even making the Shredder better still leaves it as a 'maybe' option. Which means there is an issue with the weapon design. In my opinion the answer is twofold;

1. DE don't need a Str 5 scattering weapon with short range and no AP - because that will almost always hurt us more than our opponents.

2. DE do not lack for an ability to hurt infantry. We have a thing called a splinter rifle - it's pretty darn good, and costs less. Also, against the infantry units that s.rifles suffer at dealing with, the blaster helps anti-infantry better than the shredder.

I understand their basic goal of giving us an anti-infantry special weapon - it's just it needs to be something better. I will admit I'm unsure of the optimal answer, as most things I start thinking of start to seem a little overpowered (as I type this I was trying to think of how to make the Shredder playable, and my answer became - make it a torrent template weapon with the same statline otherwise and make it cost 10 points...the thing is, that is actually a pretty scary weapon, but then if it cost the same as a Blaster I don't think it would ever be used, and I think it's too good at 10, so...?)

The shredder needs something - currently it lacks it.

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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Thu Oct 23 2014, 17:43

I don't see Bloodbrides that bad. The wych-weapons aren't that needed anyway (AP5 could be good depending on meta, but otherwise I don't see it that good) and I don't really want an HQ with them that much anyway other than maybe a haemonculus (which means losing fleet in an assault-unit) so you can have 10 in a raider and have the weapons if you want. And the price of the bloodbrides is now basically the same as haywyches because you can't buy the 'nades Razz I would rather take them than regular wyches.

Also, how have combat drugs got worse?
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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Thu Oct 23 2014, 19:25

@Mngwa wrote:
I don't see Bloodbrides that bad. [snip] I would rather take them than regular wyches.
Any real reason why? Basically you're paying +3 points for +1 Str 3 AP - attack. I don't consider that very impressive, really.

@Mngwa wrote:
Also, how have combat drugs got worse?
Well, combat drugs used to be;

1. Useless
2-5. Boost damage output.
6. Boost survivability and damage output.

Now they are;

1-2. Boost damage output
3. Useless
4. Boost survivability
5. Boost damage output.
6. Useless/survivability.

I also will point out, the damage output gains are either the same or weaker in the new dex, and the survivability boost is probably weaker as well (+1 Toughness versus starting with FNP seems a no brainer as to which is better in my opinion when the T shift is from 3 to 4. Though I will admit that one is nice for Bikes.)

But, in any case, the gains got markedly worse than they were pretty much across the board - that's why I think they are worse.

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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Thu Oct 23 2014, 20:25

Kabalite Warriors: Spot on.

Trueborn: I used to run a boat of splinterborn, I won't be doing that anymore. But mostly the same like you guys said.

Wyches: Yeah... I used to run venom blades and power lances... also haywire grenades. I won't shelve them right away, but that's only because I need to buy warriors to replace them. I still don't think combat drugs got worse, I say they're about even, I don't think +initiative or +weaponskill is useless. At I7 I think the only thing that will strike them first is Eldar/Dark Eldar HQs and daemon prince? Wych weapons, bah, hydra gauntlets were the only weapon that made them a viable assault option in the last codex in my opinion. Oh! You guys didn't mention the Phantasm Grenade Launcher. I used to love assaulting through cover, overwatch that! 3-4+ cover save. Oh. Not anymore.

Bloodbrides: As above but -10. Again spot on.

Damnit. My succubi was male, I didn't catch that. Edit: Then again, he had a venom blade so he's no longer fluffy or legal. Oh well.

Great job again guys, keep'em coming.

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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Sat Oct 25 2014, 04:11

@Expletive Deleted wrote:


Damnit. My succubi was male, I didn't catch that. Edit: Then again, he had a venom blade so he's no longer fluffy or legal. Oh well.

Great job again guys, keep'em coming.
Hey, your Succubus was cool before it stopped existing!

Thanks for the complement, really keeps us going Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Sat Oct 25 2014, 04:36

@Evil Space Elves wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:


Damnit. My succubi was male, I didn't catch that. Edit: Then again, he had a venom blade so he's no longer fluffy or legal. Oh well.

Great job again guys, keep'em coming.
Hey, your Succubus was cool before it stopped existing!

Thanks for the complement, really keeps us going Twisted Evil

He really was... I gave him the head with shades that come out of the Reaver kit, and since it's always night in Commorarragh, this meant he wore his sun glasses at night, so no one would push a blade on him. His foot was propped on a Space Wolves helmet, probably with the head still inside. It was the perfect trophy, to go with his custom Ferinsian Ale Keg objective he just raided from Fenris, for the sweet party he was gonna throw back at the arena.

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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Sat Oct 25 2014, 04:41

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
@Evil Space Elves wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:


Damnit. My succubi was male, I didn't catch that. Edit: Then again, he had a venom blade so he's no longer fluffy or legal. Oh well.

Great job again guys, keep'em coming.
Hey, your Succubus was cool before it stopped existing!

Thanks for the complement, really keeps us going Twisted Evil

He really was... I gave him the head with shades that come out of the Reaver kit, and since it's always night in Commorarragh, this meant he wore his sun glasses at night, so no one would push a blade on him. His foot was propped on a Space Wolves helmet, probably with the head still inside. It was the perfect trophy, to go with his custom Ferinsian Ale Keg objective he just raided from Fenris, for the sweet party he was gonna throw back at the arena.
Sweet feathery holy hell! That guy was EPIC!

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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Sat Oct 25 2014, 05:46

I was going through my bits to see if I had another head with shades to fashion a new Archon. Then I thought of something, and double checked. No drugs. It's not a party without the drugs... Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Sat Oct 25 2014, 08:11

I'm sorry maybe I'm doing something wrong.

Do I need to pay for libsyn to keep listening to the podcast, if that's the case that's very unfortunate. Also I can't find you guys on the podcast app on iOS
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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Sat Oct 25 2014, 09:12

I will also admit I have an easier time with the other Host.

I wanted to model my trueborn with shardcarbines or a close combat option.

never mind, that will go to my Corsairs/Exodites.

Fluff wise, it seems Malys wants to make our beautiful city, fount of all that is shiny and virtuous a franchise of Chaos inc. Looks like the beggining of the end.
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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Sat Oct 25 2014, 15:38

CultofRedSail wrote:
I'm sorry maybe I'm doing something wrong.

Do I need to pay for libsyn to keep listening to the podcast, if that's the case that's very unfortunate. Also I can't find you guys on the podcast app on iOS

Clicking this link: http://splintermind.libsyn.com/rss in safari on your ios device should take you to the podcast app where you can add the podcast.
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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Sat Oct 25 2014, 15:40

CultofRedSail wrote:
I'm sorry maybe I'm doing something wrong.

Do I need to pay for libsyn to keep listening to the podcast, if that's the case that's very unfortunate. Also I can't find you guys on the podcast app on iOS
I'm a PC user, so I don't know what the podcast app does or doesn't do - can't help you there. (PEdit - thanks Riddip! Very Happy )

You don't need to pay for LibSyn to listen to the cast, following the link and clicking the play button is all free and will get you the cast. LibSyn might have some upgraded option or some mobile app it would like you to pay for, that seems possible, but there's certainly no obligation to purchase it to listen to the cast.

@Tengu wrote:
Fluff wise, it seems Malys wants to make our beautiful city, fount of all that is shiny and virtuous a franchise of Chaos inc.  Looks like the beggining of the end.
Maybe, though her extensive work with the Harlies suggests she's doing something for Cegoratch, and I wouldn't think he's involved with a pro-Chaos deal.

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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Mon Oct 27 2014, 13:39

Great show this time guys!
I appreciate you trying to find uses for the Wyches, however poor they are this edition.

I guess I just don't like running my Succubus with Incubi, as it offends my fluff sense Wink

@Riddip wrote:
Now works in the ios podcast app, yay!

Clicking on the rss button in the lower left on an ios device will take you straight into the podcast app Cool

Which app are you using to run it?

I was using the podomatic app to run episodes 1-3 but I have to stream this new one from Safari


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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Mon Oct 27 2014, 13:53

@Thor665 wrote:
@Mngwa wrote:
I don't see Bloodbrides that bad. [snip] I would rather take them than regular wyches.
Any real reason why? Basically you're paying +3 points for +1 Str 3 AP -  attack. I don't consider that very impressive, really.

@Mngwa wrote:
Also, how have combat drugs got worse?
Well, combat drugs used to be;

1. Useless
2-5. Boost damage output.
6. Boost survivability and damage output.

Now they are;

1-2. Boost damage output
3. Useless
4. Boost survivability
5. Boost damage output.
6. Useless/survivability.

I also will point out, the damage output gains are either the same or weaker in the new dex, and the survivability boost is probably weaker as well (+1 Toughness versus starting with FNP seems a no brainer as to which is better in my opinion when the T shift is from 3 to 4. Though I will admit that one is nice for Bikes.)

But, in any case, the gains got markedly worse than they were pretty much across the board - that's why I think they are worse.

I'm not sure I agree with your definition of 'useless', a boost to initiative might not be as great as the other options but it does a few things for us
- allows the Succubus to strike first vs high int opponents
- improves chance of a sweeping advance (because contrary to popular opinion, not everyone is space marines), and in turn, improves your chances of escaping should you break.

Likewise leadership is not useless either, esp since Wyches are one of the few things in the game that are vulnerable to fear (which they seem to be handing out like candy these days), it also helps us to avoid breaking from combat (important if you are trying to grind with an agoniser Hekatrix) and reduces the chance of being pinned (from a wrecked raider or whatever).

I think that overall the drugs are a bit of a wash from last edition, there is no completely useless result (as with result 1 last ed) and there is no vastly superior result (as with 6 last ed), granted some are more desirable than others (attacks or strength for example), but at least they all add something, and they don't give a massive swing on army effectiveness based on the result of a single D6, which they used to.
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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Mon Oct 27 2014, 18:10

@Spiney Norman wrote:
I'm not sure I agree with your definition of 'useless', a boost to initiative might not be as great as the other options but it does a few things for us
- allows the Succubus to strike first vs high int opponents
- improves chance of a sweeping advance (because contrary to popular opinion, not everyone is space marines), and in turn, improves your chances of escaping should you break.
Okay, so that would be the difference of initiative 8 vs. initiative 9.
That will make a difference versus Daemon Princes (and allowing you to be equal to Skulltaker and Bloodthirster) and also props you over like, one Nid with upgrades.
Do you fight a lot of that stuff with your Succubus?
Because the only one I'm seeing that is likely to happen is the DP - and the Succubus probably doesn't want to fight the DP anyway as we should just shoot it with splinter weapons. I8 already makes us faster than anything in the Eldar codex save the Avatar. I 8 is *crazy fast*
And as far as running things down/escaping, yeah I will agree +1 to your I8 will make it easier to run things down. That said, you already only need a 2+ to run down anything I4 that rolls a 6 on their check...so you're already running down almost anything in the game with ease.

I will agree both of those mean "something"
I do think that the occurrences where it will matter at all are so few and specialized that it makes the drug roll a "useless" effect though.

@Spiney Norman wrote:
Likewise leadership is not useless either, esp since Wyches are one of the few things in the game that are vulnerable to fear (which they seem to be handing out like candy these days), it also helps us to avoid breaking from combat (important if you are trying to grind with an agoniser Hekatrix) and reduces the chance of being pinned (from a wrecked raider or whatever).
I will agree that it is of minor benefit to Wyches.
I disagree that anyone wanting to be competitive will ever take Wyches.
I also disagree that it is of enough help to qualify as a 'good' result.

Probably it is a minor bump to RJBs...that said, most of the other results are vastly of more use to RJBs. Just as they are to any other drug user in the dex. Like, if I rolled +1 Ld and was given the option of a re-roll, I'd take it every time. That suggests that Ld is a useless result to me.

@Spiney Norman wrote:
I think that overall the drugs are a bit of a wash from last edition, there is no completely useless result (as with result 1 last ed) and there is no vastly superior result (as with 6 last ed), granted some are more desirable than others (attacks or strength for example), but at least they all add something, and they don't give a massive swing on army effectiveness based on the result of a single D6, which they used to.
I will agree they have less effect on the effectiveness of the army.
Though I think that makes my point Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Mon Oct 27 2014, 19:18

To be fair back in the 5th codex combat drugs competitively were almost exclusively only useful on a 6. +1S, +1WS, rerolling assault wounds and +1A, are hardly useful when you're assaulting vehicles with haywire grenades and bladevaning with bikes. Hellions are as useless as they ever were, and now Wyches, and Bloodbrides are useless, but it's not the drugs fault. So the only two units that will be seen that have them get a few things.

If drugs were the same, reaver jetbikes would start with FnP but now it's automatic turn 3, now we have access to T5 FnP bikes. And an initiative and weapon skill bonus on bikes is pretty decent.

It's funny while sure initiative and weaponskill aren't great for the succubus, the "useless" one is. Remember she's only Ld 9, and it's embarrassing when your HQ runs away and get's gunned down, which is what will happen since nothing can catch her.

So in my opinion the only two units with drugs worth taking are improved by them. They're still not great, but they are improved over the last codex.

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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Mon Oct 27 2014, 19:29

That doesn't qualify the drug chart as being bad, it qualifies it as being bad in using them in a non-infantry assault capacity.

Current wyches have only one capacity now.
The drug chart is now inferior for them compared to what the old one would have been.

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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Mon Oct 27 2014, 22:04

@Thor665 wrote:
That doesn't qualify the drug chart as being bad, it qualifies it as being bad in using them in a non-infantry assault capacity.

Current wyches have only one capacity now.
The drug chart is now inferior for them compared to what the old one would have been.

But their assault capacity was bad with the old chart. Unless the capacity you're referring to now is dust collecting. I just think the drug chart gets a bad rap. It was a meh change. I don't miss the old chart and I'm not impressed with the new one, but it did make two units slightly better. They didn't make wyches worse either, a lot of factors did that.

Let's not derail the topic away from your guys awesome episode though. Can't wait until you get to heavy support.

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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Mon Oct 27 2014, 23:48

@Spiney Norman wrote:
Great show this time guys!
I appreciate you trying to find uses for the Wyches, however poor they are this edition.

I guess I just don't like running my Succubus with Incubi, as it offends my fluff sense Wink

@Riddip wrote:
Now works in the ios podcast app, yay!

Clicking on the rss button in the lower left on an ios device will take you straight into the podcast app Cool

Which app are you using to run it?

I was using the podomatic app to run episodes 1-3 but I have to stream this new one from Safari

The official apple podcast app. I think it now comes preinstalled with ios 8 but before you had to download it from the store.
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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Tue Oct 28 2014, 00:25

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
@Thor665 wrote:
That doesn't qualify the drug chart as being bad, it qualifies it as being bad in using them in a non-infantry assault capacity.

Current wyches have only one capacity now.
The drug chart is now inferior for them compared to what the old one would have been.

But their assault capacity was bad with the old chart. Unless the capacity you're referring to now is dust collecting. I just think the drug chart gets a bad rap. It was a meh change. I don't miss the old chart and I'm not impressed with the new one, but it did make two units slightly better. They didn't make wyches worse either, a lot of factors did that.

Let's not derail the topic away from your guys awesome episode though. Can't wait until you get to heavy support.
Their assault capability in 5th edition back when the drug chart under question was first designed was fine, and all the options worked.

In 6th edition 1 of the options was made useless and the unit suffered a lot in functionality, though I still ran them as assault tools, I primarily began running them as HWG delivery.

7th edition didn't change really anything for them.

The new codex changed a couple of things. it robbed them of their HWG option, it robbed them of multiple weapon options that were more affordable *and* superior to the ones they now have, and it made the drug chart less likely to give them a boost in assault - which is now their only functional use. Also, it had useless options without even needing an edition shift to cause them.

If what you are arguing is 'the old chart wasn't brilliant' I agree.
If you are arguing 'the current wyches with the old chart still would not be good' I agree.
But if you are arguing 'the new drug chart is superior or equal to the old chart' I disagree.

Does one of those cover your point and make my stance clear?

You can feel free to talk up how awesome the podcast is though Razz

We covered Elite and Heavy in Episode 4, which will be out this coming Wednesday.
Hopefully we discuss everything you hope we do Surprised

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PostSubject: Re: Splintermind Episode 3.5   Tue Oct 28 2014, 01:03

@Thor665 wrote:

But if you are arguing 'the new drug chart is superior or equal to the old chart' I disagree.

This, and we'll just have to disagree. In my competitive list in sixth I would have rerolled anything that wasn't a 6 because our primary combat drug users didn't function as infantry assault. So to me the chart had about a 1/6 chance of being useful. With the new chart I would keep a T5 jetbike, and a T4 succubus. I would keep a Ld 10 succubus or a Ld 10 Arena Champ. I might keep I6 reavers depends on the opponent. And I would usually keep WS5 reavers too, lots of WS4 out there. That was my argument Thor, 7th edition the drugs actually help the good units that have them do their job better. 6th they didn't. But then they were designed for 5th so I get your point.

@Thor665 wrote:

We covered Elite and Heavy in Episode 4, which will be out this coming Wednesday.
Hopefully we discuss everything you hope we do Surprised


Yep, pretty interested since I see that as a stinker section of the codex(heavy). I just hope you lampooned the void raven adequately.

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