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 Silly Question Regarding Formations

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Mr. Ghoti
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PostSubject: Silly Question Regarding Formations   Wed Oct 22 2014, 21:32

Hey all, long time lurker, finally getting around to making an account here. Started off with 'nids, then jumped into Dark Eldar last year. Anyways here's my question:

I've looked up and down the BRB, and I know that on pg 121 it talks about formations being their own detachments and all, and I'm fine with that. But does that also spread out to "apocalypse formations"?

For instance, in White Dwarf 15, there is the Kabalite Stormsuge formation that I BELIEVE is listed as an "apocalypse formation." Does this really restrict it to apocalypse only? or am I allowed to use that in normal play?

With the onset of gargantuan creatures, superheavy walkers, formations, Lords of War, and other things... The line between apocalypse and normal play seems very blurred to me. or maybe I'm just missing things. Crying or Very sad

Correct me please.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Silly Question Regarding Formations   Wed Oct 22 2014, 21:40

Difficult to say.

Before 7th Edition, Dataslates had the following Disclaimer:

Quote :
If a Formation is referred to as an Apocalypse Formation, it can only be used in games of Warhammer 40,000: Apocalypse.


7th edition BRB itself makes no more remarks to Formations belonging to one Game or another:

Quote :
Formations
Formations are a special type of Detachment, each a specific grouping of units renowned for their effectiveness on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium. Whilst some Formations provide you with all the gaming information you will need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific units together. Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain. Unless stated otherwise, each individual unit maintains its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a Formation.
Unlike other Detachments, Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the Formation.


Formations/Dataslates coming out AFTER 7th Edition (like Assassines for example) also no longer mention different Formations for Apoc and "standard" 40k:


Quote :
FORMATIONS
A Formation presents a collection of units that fight alongside one another in a particular way. Each Formation will tell you what units you need to take and what, if any, options or restrictions apply to the units that make up that Formation. The Army List Entries for each unit in the Formation (the units’ profiles, points values, unit types, unit composition, special rules, battlefield role etc.) can all be found in this dataslate.

So its a big grey area at the moment. Best would be to talk to your opponent about the issue or ask the TO (if any).
Also some Apoc Formations could pose problems as they boost Apoc specific rules like Finest Hour or Strategic Assets.

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Mr. Ghoti
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PostSubject: Re: Silly Question Regarding Formations   Wed Oct 22 2014, 21:52

Well for instance the Tyranid formation dataslates had the disclaimer at the beginning that formations will describe the formation as an "apocalypse only" formation if it was one. Now, none of them had that description to them, and the Kabalite Stormsurge formation doesn't say that, even though it was an additional formation for an apocalypse scenario book in a White Dwarf magazine that didn't have any apocalypse-related rules to it... then again, they were pre-7E...

I believe that in the new edition I am allowed to do so, it's just backing up my point for my local group to understand.

I play against tau and grey knights exclusively nowadays with necrons thrown about here and there. dropping blasterborn, assault reavers, and a few scalpel squadrons turn 1, going second and having my whole board off the table and "arriving late to the party" sound like fun to me.
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Silly Question Regarding Formations   Thu Oct 23 2014, 08:33

You have to have models on the board by your opponent end of turn or you automatically loose the game.

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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: Silly Question Regarding Formations   Thu Oct 23 2014, 08:48

@shadowseercB wrote:
You have to have models on the board by your opponent end of turn or you automatically loose the game.

Allmost but not quite.

You need to have models on the table at the end of every gameturn. Othervice you lose. If your opponent goes first and kill everything but you are able to bring reserves to the table you are good.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Silly Question Regarding Formations   Thu Oct 23 2014, 08:48

@shadowseercB wrote:
You have to have models on the board by your opponent end of turn or you automatically loose the game.

Scalpel squadrons automatically arrive on turn 1

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Silly Question Regarding Formations   Thu Oct 23 2014, 09:13

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@shadowseercB wrote:
You have to have models on the board by your opponent end of turn or you automatically loose the game.

Scalpel squadrons automatically arrive on turn 1

True. Just make sure they don't mishap!

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Silly Question Regarding Formations   Thu Oct 23 2014, 09:22

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@shadowseercB wrote:
You have to have models on the board by your opponent end of turn or you automatically loose the game.

Scalpel squadrons automatically arrive on turn 1

True. Just make sure they don't mishap!

Indeed, cityfight terrain would probably be a bad thing for these guys! Off topic a bit, but is it just me or is the special rule for them awesomely good? You get 4 splinter cannons and 2 ossefactors, plus anything you give an acothyst to shoot/finish off one unit and if that gets first blood you get D3 VP's? I'm tempted to say these are almost an auto include in my army, especially for the cost!

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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Silly Question Regarding Formations   Thu Oct 23 2014, 09:24

@Vasara wrote:
@shadowseercB wrote:
You have to have models on the board by your opponent end of turn or you automatically loose the game.

Allmost but not quite.

You need to have models on the table at the end of every gameturn. Othervice you lose. If your opponent goes first and kill everything but you are able to bring reserves to the table you are good.
Page 133.  "End of game turn".  I see thanks, that opens  up strategic options for me.

I didn't know there was a difference from game turn and player turn.
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Mr. Ghoti
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PostSubject: Re: Silly Question Regarding Formations   Thu Oct 23 2014, 10:57

@shadowseercB wrote:
@Vasara wrote:
@shadowseercB wrote:
You have to have models on the board by your opponent end of turn or you automatically loose the game.

Allmost but not quite.

You need to have models on the table at the end of every gameturn. Othervice you lose. If your opponent goes first and kill everything but you are able to bring reserves to the table you are good.
Page 133.  "End of game turn".  I see thanks, that opens  up strategic options for me.

I didn't know there was a difference from game turn and player turn.

Yeahp thats the point of the strategy: try to always go second, keeping everything off the board so that when my scalpel squads comes in at the end of T1, if they would all die from my opponents T2 shooting, I still have my reserves coming in. OR if I am allowed to take the kabalite stormsurge in my normal games like I am thinking it should, everything deepstrikes in end of turn 1, most of it without scatter from the formation, and is hard to hit.

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@shadowseercB wrote:
You have to have models on the board by your opponent end of turn or you automatically loose the game.

Scalpel squadrons automatically arrive on turn 1

True. Just make sure they don't mishap!

Indeed, cityfight terrain would probably be a bad thing for these guys! Off topic a bit, but is it just me or is the special rule for them awesomely good? You get 4 splinter cannons and 2 ossefactors, plus anything you give an acothyst to shoot/finish off one unit and if that gets first blood you get D3 VP's? I'm tempted to say these are almost an auto include in my army, especially for the cost!

I believe the wording is that instead of 1 point for first blood, it is instead D3 points, but I could be mistaken.
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Mr. Ghoti
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PostSubject: Re: Silly Question Regarding Formations   Thu Oct 23 2014, 12:09

Well me and my buddy have poured over this thing multiple times from nearly every angle and have come to the conclusion that yes, we can use it in casual play against each other, apoc formations are VERY grey in usability, as there simply isn't enough time or evidence to suggest ALL formations are legal in normal play, and that the Kabalite Stormsurge formation (while not explicitly stating that is an apocalypse only formation), being a white dwarf only supplement to the Valedor War Zone book (where the formations are stated as apoc only in the book), is supposed to be apoc only... sadface...
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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Silly Question Regarding Formations   Thu Oct 23 2014, 21:42

Here's my video on the Dark Artisan formation, Scalpel Squadron coming over the weekend:
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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Silly Question Regarding Formations   Fri Oct 24 2014, 04:31

Scalpel Squadron Tactica:
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