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Tittliewinks22
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PostSubject: jinking and bombing runs   Wed Oct 22 2014, 04:19

Jink rule says you fire snapshots until the end of your next turn.

Snap shots rule says you cannot fire ordnance or template weapons, or weapons that fire using the blast rule. It references the page which talks about blasts and scatter.

Bombing runs is detailed on a different page entirely.

Can you drop a bomb the turn after you jink?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Wed Oct 22 2014, 05:23

I've seen this before, and it's not very clearly defined by the rulebook.

The best answer I saw is as referenced to Page 40 the entire paragraph under 'Type'

It basically says that a Bomb type weapon is a shooting weapon, and shooting weapons can only make shooting attacks.
At that point, since a bombing run uses a weapon profile with a 'bomb' type it is, by definition, a shooting attack that happens in the movement phase and would be subject to the rules of snapfire. Ergo - no bombs after jink.

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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Wed Oct 22 2014, 10:42

I think not.

If one Jinks, one can only snap shoot.
When one snap shoots, one cannot use Blast weapons.
Bombs are Blast weapons.
Ergo.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Wed Oct 22 2014, 10:48

I also think it's relevant to think about the 'fluff' side when interpreting rules issues (like the splinter rack debate, how does a pile of ammo on one raider help the warriors on another raider halfway across the battlefield).

In this instance, no bombardier is going to press the big red button on his one weapon if the plane is flinging itself one way and another to avoid incoming fire.

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Finn
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Thu Nov 06 2014, 07:58

Guys, come on... Bombing run is not shooting, hence the snap shot rule does not apply. Why would you not be able to drop the bomb?

„Unlike other weapons, Bombs must be used in the Movement phase of their turn, in a special kind of attack called a Bombing Run.”

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Thu Nov 06 2014, 09:04

Quote :
In this instance, no bombardier is going to press the big red button on his one weapon if the plane is flinging itself one way and another to avoid incoming fire.

Actually they do. Also there are more directions than "left" and "right" when avoiding fire. Bombing runs are used to get rid of enemy AA or Comm defended by AA that was the main reason for the power of the Stuka in WW2 - they could reliably hit their targets while beeing a difficult target for AA.
We are way beyond that now with Laser guided bombs and electronicws... and I bet the spacefaring Dark Eldar in their extra dimensional home are beyond a WW2 Stuka too....
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Thu Nov 06 2014, 09:22

@Finn wrote:
Guys, come on... Bombing run is not shooting, hence the snap shot rule does not apply. Why would you not be able to drop the bomb?

„Unlike other weapons, Bombs must be used in the Movement phase of their turn, in a special kind of attack called a Bombing Run.”

I don't think it's that clear cut. If anything, the rules say the opposite.

Quote :
Type
A shooting weapon always has one of the following types: Assault, Bomb, Heavy, Ordnance, Pistol, Primary Weapon, Rapid Fire or Salvo. These rules (found below) measure a weapon’s portability and affect the way they can be fired, depending on whether or not the model carrying them moved that turn. A shooting weapon can only be used to make shooting attacks.

This is of course complicated by the fact that, a Void Mine appears to be a melee weapon!

Quote :
Range
If the weapon’s range contains a ‘-’, it is (unless otherwise stated) a Melee weapon. If it contains a number, or ‘Template’ or ‘Hellstorm’, it is a shooting weapon.

Range on a Void Mine? '-'!


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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Thu Nov 06 2014, 09:46

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
In this instance, no bombardier is going to press the big red button on his one weapon if the plane is flinging itself one way and another to avoid incoming fire.

Actually they do. Also there are more directions than "left" and "right" when avoiding fire. Bombing runs are used to get rid of enemy AA or Comm defended by AA that was the main reason for the power of the Stuka in WW2 - they could reliably hit their targets while beeing a difficult target for AA.
We are way beyond that now with Laser guided bombs and electronicws... and I bet the spacefaring Dark Eldar in their extra dimensional home are beyond a WW2 Stuka too....

And Anti-air has stagnated the whole time too? I think not (icarus lascannon, space marine hunter etc, as well as the twin linked quad guns and hydras representing more advanced targeting systems). The point being that 'evade' is a way of evading fire, just as the flickerfield represents an energy field, and holofields represent a way of fooling targeting systems.

The stuka worked for two reasons - first, dive bombing was a comparatively accurate way of delivering bombs, and second, the steep angle of descent meant that the plane presented an extremely small profile to the AA guns, which were aimed by eye and thus not very accurate. Of course the downside was that if the gunners were on target, you were pretty much guaranteed to turn yourself into a pavement pizza (you know, kinda like if you decide not to jink that AV10 flyer!)

Evading prevents you from shooting template and blast weapons and represents the fact that the platform isn't stable enough for them to be accurate - this would be equally relevant, if not more so, to the bomb as it is shot (dropped) before the shooting phase when normal shooting weapons are still affected.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Thu Nov 06 2014, 10:28

So a void mine is a shooting melee weapon that is used to make neither shooting not melee attacks but special kind of attacks called bombing runs. Sweet Smile

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Thu Nov 06 2014, 10:41

@Count - would you not say that because bomb is specifically listed as a shooting weapon that qualifies the bracketed part of the melee quote - ie bombs are otherwise stated as being a shooting weapon despite having no range on their profile?

@Finn - I'd agree with Thor that bombing runs are a type of shooting attack, since they're made by a shooting weapon.

This is also not the only instance where shooting attacks are not made in the shooting phase - interceptor for example allows you to make a shooting attack in your opponent's movement phase. I suppose if you really wanted to nitpick then witchfires are also shooting attacks, just psychic ones that happen in the psychic phase (just to be clear, I'm not that guy, far as I'm concerned witchfires are different).

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Thu Nov 06 2014, 10:41

Quote :
And Anti-air has stagnated the whole time too? I think not (icarus lascannon, space marine hunter etc, as well as the twin linked quad guns and hydras representing more advanced targeting systems).

So we can conclude that there is a status quo where everything got updated, right? Its not that we scrap bombers today because... uhm... they might have AA and our laser guided bombs wont hit when we try to not get hit by AA?
We still drop bombs today when AA is aimed at the bombers. They will do it in 40k too.

The bomb is a shooting weapon that does not make a shooting attack but a bombing run.
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Thu Nov 06 2014, 11:40

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Count - would you not say that because bomb is specifically listed as a shooting weapon that qualifies the bracketed part of the melee quote - ie bombs are otherwise stated as being a shooting weapon despite having no range on their profile?

My problem with that is that it states that shooting weapons always have one of the listed types but not that the listed types are always shooting weapons, despite it seeming obvious that they are.

I personally tend to agree that it is a shooting weapon and therefore, according to the rule I quoted earlier, can only be used to make shooting attacks. As a consequence of that you could not fire it after jinking.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Thu Nov 06 2014, 11:46

I see no other choice then the bomb is a shooting weapon. It has no range so to speak because it is defined by the movment of the bomber, its a common sense issue. As its not an auto hit weapon such as old bladevanes for example, its subject to standard shooting rules for the type it is.

So its a shooting attack, with a variable range as defined by the movement of the vehicle, its a large blast and so therefore can not fire snapshots, hence if you jink, you cant drop it. I see no real reason to think otherwise that's not just clutching at straws.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Thu Nov 06 2014, 11:48

But the rules for bombs specifically what kind of attack it is. And it's not a shooting attack. To me, it doesn't look like rules lawyering in the slightest. It's all right there in the rulebook.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Thu Nov 06 2014, 11:59

Until it gets FAQ'd (which at the rate GW actually put useful ones out this will be a discussion until the end of time) its always going to be an issue. I personally see it as a shooting attack so to speak as it uses a blast. As it is not like the before mentioned bladevanes previous ed which auto hit a unit and were clearly an effect of the movement, but rather it is an attack that can be made during the movement, I read it as it should be subject to all the rules of snapfire. Maybe they will change it, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems fair/reasonable to me!

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Thu Nov 06 2014, 12:50

Do you subtract your BS from the bomb's scatter roll?

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Thu Nov 06 2014, 12:54

I've added this to the FAQ.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Thu Nov 06 2014, 13:05

@Finn wrote:
Do you subtract your BS from the bomb's scatter roll?

Do the bombing run rules tell you to?

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Thu Nov 06 2014, 13:11

No, but the void mine has the blast special rule, which does.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Thu Nov 06 2014, 13:19

But the blast is the tool for the weapon right? So it follows the bomb rule and uses the large blast template? Its a specific rule to go over the top of the previous rule. Like how an orbital blast always scatters even though a normal blast doesn't depending on dice roll?

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Thu Nov 06 2014, 13:23

Orbital bombardment specifically states that it always scatters full 2d6.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Thu Nov 06 2014, 13:42

Exactly. So although it uses the blast template, it has additional overriding rules to use. Like the bomb which I'm going from memory here, please correct me if its wrong, is that you can place it over any unengaged model that you pass over and then you scatter d6? So I'm not sure you do take away the BS (again hopefully faq will fix this and clear it up) as it doesn't say you should?

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Thu Nov 06 2014, 13:44

Bombing runs do not scatter 2d6 and do not subtract BS.

A model making a bombing run places the template over a model it passed over. Then scatters the template a full D6. It does not scatter like any other weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Thu Nov 06 2014, 13:46

There you go Smile

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   Thu Nov 06 2014, 14:17

Interestingly people seem to point to the bombing run when it mentions the rules how to deploy the bomb but dismiss it when it clearly states "is a special kind of attack" (so no shooting attack and no melee attack)
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