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gargamelgrozni
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PostSubject: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Mon Oct 20 2014, 09:08

Hi,

so browsing on bolter and chainsword i came upon a discusion and a few people there think that webway portal does not allow transporter to deep strike without scatter. Reading the rule i see where thy come from as it says:

"If a model with a webway portal is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, then the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule. This model, and his unit, will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve."

so the second sentance reads that the model and his unit (and they read this as his joined unit) do not scatter but it says nothing about transporter.

What do you think?
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D34m0nSp4wn
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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Mon Oct 20 2014, 09:48

The key wording there is:
Quote :
or is embarked upon

meaning any unit upon which the IC with the WWP is embarked, i.e. the dedicated transport.

So yes 100% definitely a transport does not scatter when carrying an IC with a WWP.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Mon Oct 20 2014, 09:58

This is actually a serious issue. Sadly I have to concur that the no scatter ability does not confer to the transport. The actual rule is broken up into two sentences:

Quote :
If a model with a webway portal is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, then the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule.


No problem there. The model, any unit it has joined and any transport it is in all gain the Deep Strike rule.

But then it goes on to say:

Quote :
This model, and his unit, will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

Only the model, and any unit it has joined, gain the 'no scatter' portion of the rule. No mention of the transport. It is the transport that rolls for scatter, not the model/unit. Therefore the WWP is pretty much useless unless you arrive on foot.

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D34m0nSp4wn
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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Mon Oct 20 2014, 10:12

Good point, my bad. I had totally misread that last line.
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gargamelgrozni
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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Mon Oct 20 2014, 10:14

jeah sounds that way, the only argument in our favor could be that in the first sentence they talk about unit and say unit = joined or embarked and in the second sentence it is worded his unit and "his" is not an actual rule as far as I'm aware, it should say joined unit and then it would be clear...
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Mon Oct 20 2014, 10:43

Do the deep strike rules specify that it's the transport that rolls for scatter? I thought it was just 'units arriving from reserve', which would suggest you either roll for one (without specifying which one), or both separately.

It seems counter-intuitive that the webway portal allows the unit to arrive without scatter if they're on foot but not if they're in a trasport without specifically stating that is the case. I'm all for playing the rules correctly as written but this seems...odd. I can see a situation where strictly rules as written, since both the transport and the unit are arriving from deep strike reserve, you could end up scattering the transport but not the unit (perhaps evasive maneouvres caused them all to fall out at the last minute?)

Does anyone know of wnything elsewhere in the rules that clarifies being embarked on a DT counts as being part of the unit (I'm expecting not in view of the jink argument)


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Erebus
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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Mon Oct 20 2014, 14:44

Quote :
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together.

Not quite as clear cut as 6th ed's statement that dedicated transports and the unit embarked upon it count as one unit for the purposes of reserves, but I think it's enough. The model with WWP and their unit don't scatter, and since the transport arrives with them, it doesn't scatter either.

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Javorra
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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Mon Oct 20 2014, 15:41

Moreover the dedicated transport is a unit itself, so the phrase "This model, and his unit, will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve" includes both the unit the IC joined AND the transport he is embarked on.
Also the wording of the first sentence ("then the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule") confirm that, as I never saw any IC embarked on a unit different from a transport...
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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Mon Oct 20 2014, 18:23

@Javorra wrote:
Moreover the dedicated transport is a unit itself, so the phrase "This model, and his unit, will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve" includes both the unit the IC joined AND the transport he is embarked on.
Also the wording of the first sentence ("then the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule") confirm that, as I never saw any IC embarked on a unit different from a transport...

+1

Also the first sentence is very important as it explains what is considered as the unit in the second sentence.
Quote :
If a model with a webway portal is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, then the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule     

The coloured part is the important part as it speaks of two units, the one it has joined and the one it is embarked upon.
Of you think that the unit is only in regards to the one the IC has joined then try writing the sentence without that part...

Quote :
If a model with a webway portal is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, then the model and any ???? is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule

I think it is pretty clear that the vehicle is also considered as a unit and thus profits from the no scatter ability.
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gargamelgrozni
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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Mon Oct 20 2014, 18:25

The problem is what "his unit" means, it can only mean joined unit and that if we are generous as "his unit" is not a rule, "joined unit" is.

Since you can never join a transporter and as you told it a transporter is a unit itself and you can only embark on it looks like it gets no precise deep strike...

@Crazy_Irish oh i agree with that reasoning but that is not what they wrote.

The first sentence tells what units get the deep strike special rule and the second tells what aditional benefit they get and here transporter is not mentioned.

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Mon Oct 20 2014, 20:58

That's clearly a very strict application. RAI we all know the vehicle
Does not scatter. Poor writing aside, and RAW is flimsy at best so I'd slap anyone who tried to make that argument.

The second sentence is not clear on what "his unit" is, so the best option here pre faq (or post since they won't address it) is to follow the rules laid down in sentence one when determining "his unit" as that is not a legal game term.

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gargamelgrozni
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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Mon Oct 20 2014, 21:08

i play chaos as well as dark eldar so i visit bolter and chainsword often and well it seems you will have to do some slapping Very Happy

jokes aside if i were to play against someone that reads it that transport does not get "no scatter" i would not argue, yes i belive it should not scatter but it does not say that.

p.s. and yeah i dont think we will ever get faq, they still have the 5ed one online.
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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Thu Oct 23 2014, 13:30

@gargamelgrozni wrote:
i play chaos as well as dark eldar so i visit bolter and chainsword often and well it seems you will have to do some slapping Very Happy
That is not a problem, I will gladly assist The Red King on this task!

It is not even written badly, as it is very common and often wished that one leaves out repeating words.
I'll phrase it as an equation:
any unit it has joined or any unit it is embarked upon = any unit it has joined or is embarked upon

The second "any unit it" written in my example, can be left out, as it is a repetition of the first. The meaning of the sentence is not changed as the "or" links the two parts "has joined" and "is embarked upon" together.

@gargamelgrozni wrote:
@Crazy_Irish oh i agree with that reasoning but that is not what they wrote.

Well then they are wrong ;-) if you agree with my reasoning, then there is no reason to stand by the reasoning of the B&C mob ;-)

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DEfan
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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Fri Oct 24 2014, 08:14

Well, I want to believe the vehicle does not scatter. Cross reference deep strike with outflank. Units confer the outflank ability to the vehicle purchased for them. For the price of a grotesque in my list, I am going to say that the pricey webway portal, purchased by my rather expensive HQ model, will confer non-scattering deep strike. DE rules!

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Tursarius
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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Thu Oct 30 2014, 16:35

So if my archon chooses a venom as a dedicated transport and has a webway portal and I choose to deploy them together would the venom and the archon not be considered his unit? The venom would then gain no scatter deepstrike, correct?
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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Thu Oct 30 2014, 16:41

@Tursarius wrote:
So if my archon chooses a venom as a dedicated transport and has a webway portal and I choose to deploy them together would the venom and the archon not be considered his unit? The venom would then gain no scatter deepstrike, correct?

The issue comes that the venom would not be considered as 'his unit', instead he's embarked on it (if embarked models became part of the vehicle's unit, then jinking would affect passengers shooting, which it doesn't).

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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Thu Oct 30 2014, 17:34

Even though it is considered a unit for deployment purposes? By that I mean if he is embarked, you can't place him without placing the transport and since he arrives without scatter, the vehicle must as well, otherwise the archon would scatter too?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Thu Oct 30 2014, 21:35

@Tursarius wrote:
Even though it is considered a unit for deployment purposes? By that I mean if he is embarked, you can't place him without placing the transport and since he arrives without scatter, the vehicle must as well, otherwise the archon would scatter too?

An embarked unit does not roll for scatter though, the transport does.

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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Thu Oct 30 2014, 21:42

I'm going to post this again:
@Erebus wrote:
Quote :
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together.

Not quite as clear cut as 6th ed's statement that dedicated transports and the unit embarked upon it count as one unit for the purposes of reserves, but I think it's enough. The model with WWP and their unit don't scatter, and since the transport arrives with them, it doesn't scatter either.

Seriously, it's a non-issue.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Thu Oct 30 2014, 21:45

@Erebus wrote:
I'm going to post this again:
@Erebus wrote:
Quote :
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together.

Not quite as clear cut as 6th ed's statement that dedicated transports and the unit embarked upon it count as one unit for the purposes of reserves, but I think it's enough. The model with WWP and their unit don't scatter, and since the transport arrives with them, it doesn't scatter either.

Seriously, it's a non-issue.

Arriving together makes no difference to whether they scatter though. If the transport scatters, the unit inside and the transport still arrive together.

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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Thu Oct 30 2014, 21:50

But the unit inside doesn't scatter. Why would being in a vehicle make them scatter when they don't scatter?

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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Thu Oct 30 2014, 21:55

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Arriving together makes no difference to whether they scatter though. If the transport scatters, the unit inside and the transport still arrive together.
The vehicle has to arrive with the embarked unit. If the transport scatters, but the unit doesn't, then they're not arriving together.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Thu Oct 30 2014, 22:02

@Erebus wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Arriving together makes no difference to whether they scatter though. If the transport scatters, the unit inside and the transport still arrive together.
The vehicle has to arrive with the embarked unit. If the transport scatters, but the unit doesn't, then they're not arriving together.

The unit does not scatter. The transport does. They still arrive together and the WWP bearer and his unit have not scattered. All relevant rules have been met.

Believe me, I wish it was not worded this way but it is and unless it is FAQ'd then that's how it should be played unless your TO/opponent agrees otherwise.

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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Thu Oct 30 2014, 23:20

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Erebus wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Arriving together makes no difference to whether they scatter though. If the transport scatters, the unit inside and the transport still arrive together.
The vehicle has to arrive with the embarked unit. If the transport scatters, but the unit doesn't, then they're not arriving together.

The unit does not scatter. The transport does. They still arrive together and the WWP bearer and his unit have not scattered. All relevant rules have been met.

Believe me, I wish it was not worded this way but it is and unless it is FAQ'd then that's how it should be played unless your TO/opponent agrees otherwise.


So basically you're saying that in coming out of the webway portal they somehow fall out of the transport, and it ends up in a different place?

It's in the same league as the splinter racks mis-write - there's no way of deploying a unit that's on a transport without it ending up on the transport - I see what you're saying RAW but there's no way of doing it in the game - you have to deploy the unit as one, the only way they can end up on the table instead of embarked on the transport is if they get off it voluntarily

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PostSubject: Re: webway portal, transporters and scatter   Thu Oct 30 2014, 23:52

I think the vehicle and the unit are both scattering or not scattering together. Saying that the unit isn't scattering even though they are suffering the effects of scattering doesn't make sense to me.

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