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 Drazhar 7ed rules

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gargamelgrozni
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PostSubject: Drazhar 7ed rules   Mon Oct 20 2014, 08:19

Hi all, my first post here,

So I read a few codex and character reviews and people are saying that he is better in 7ed, now I dont know if there is something I'm missing because i would much prefere the old one even with 40pts more.

The bigest nerf is -1 str or -1 att and him losing pref enemy (when in challange) and combined with the old reposition rule for sniping special weapons I think it was worth the extra 40pts for his old incarnation? What do you think?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar 7ed rules   Mon Oct 20 2014, 09:16

He wasn't worth the points in the 5e codex. He's still not worth the points in the 7e codex.

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gargamelgrozni
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar 7ed rules   Mon Oct 20 2014, 09:20

In general I agree with that just interested why people see him as better than before Smile
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar 7ed rules   Mon Oct 20 2014, 09:27

Because people see a points reduction and shout "BETTER!!"
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Drahazar
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar 7ed rules   Mon Oct 20 2014, 10:09

He dose have eternal warrior and is base str4 str5 with his weapon and has a potential increase in attacks. So I think he is not to bad at all could be worse like lilith
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar 7ed rules   Mon Oct 20 2014, 15:43

I think Drazh remained bad and Lilith got better, myself.

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gargamelgrozni
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar 7ed rules   Mon Oct 20 2014, 18:14

well i think drazhar became worse and agree that lilith became better. so i guess im not the only one then...
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Devilogical
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar 7ed rules   Mon Oct 20 2014, 18:32

Drazar is worse for sure.
Who cares if he became cheaper? He lose all cool rules. And he still this awfull-looking old model. They even removed his art from codex to hide their incompitence.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar 7ed rules   Mon Oct 20 2014, 19:04

@Devilogical wrote:
Who cares if he became cheaper? He lose all cool rules.
Well, I cared that he got cheaper - because if he'd remained the same point cost he'd become one of the worst things in the codex since he also became weaker.

Also, if he became cheap enough he would advance into being 'not bad'.
That said, I honestly think they could price him at the OG codex price of 90 points and I'd still not field him in competitive play - that's how bad his design is.

I also like the old model though Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar 7ed rules   Mon Oct 20 2014, 21:23

I think he's a little more approachable than the last edition, but I think he plays second fiddle to the succubus only because of the grenades and the fact you can brings more to the table for Incubi than he does.

Can someone confirm with a digital copy for me? But my print edition doesn't have him with a Warlord trait? I think that's a little added value since you can re-roll now.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar 7ed rules   Mon Oct 20 2014, 21:28

Yep. No fixed WL Trait.
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Drahazar
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar 7ed rules   Tue Oct 21 2014, 02:36

Why he is good.

1. Eternal warrior

2. Str4 base str5 with weapon ap2.

3. 2+ sv

4. Cheaper
5. Can get more attacks

6. Can roll on warlord table while Lilith has the useless warlord trait for her.

All incubi get +1 to WS
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar 7ed rules   Tue Oct 21 2014, 03:22

Of course there are notable counters to a lot of that;

1. On a T4 model that has 3 wounds, so it's not like he's that hard to kill anyway.
2. Yes, he hits pretty effectively - as long as the opponent isn't in cover or doesn't have an invulnerable save like most beatsticks do.
3. A 2+ save is good as long s he can avoid dueling characters with Ap2 weaponry, which is not a small amount of them.
4. Yes, he did get cheaper. Though he remains quite expensive in the concept of DE HQ options. In fact he is the most expensive barring very silly builds.
5. More attacks than what or whom, I suppose is the question - but I will agree his damage output is solid.
6. Yes, he has an advantage over the 40 point cheaper option. Thank heaven Wink
7. Yes, and he's also obligated to be stuck in with a...acceptable assault unit as opposed to being able to be paired with something more fearsome.

The problem is, those good things (of which I think there are really more like 3 than 7) are offput by some negative utility. He lacks assault grenades, he lacks adaptability, and he's very vulnerable to challenges by beatstick commanders (who are at about his point cost).

It's really the vulnerability to beatsticks that is his issue, because at nearly 200 points on his lonesome, I expect to have a character that will stomp in a face when needed. Look at what Lysander costs, or a Chapter Master on a Bike, or even a kitted Warboss, then compare them to Draz in combat. It is not overly favorable for the uber Incubus and those things are all in his ballpark of cost and don't have as many built in limitations - they can be used in multiple ways to boost a variety of assault units whilst Draz is left to lead Incubi or run solo. That's what's really dragging him down.

------------------

Just as a thought, I had him assault a Succubus in cover with an Archite Glaive.

Without even figuring out her drug effect;
She swings first - 1.33 wounds to Draz.
Draz swings with 7.5 attacks (1.5 from rampage and using the extra swing rather than the damage boost from his klaives) 1.45 wounds to the Succubus.
She will generally win that fight on the 2nd or 3rd round and costs half what he does.

If she assaults him;
1.66 wounds from her the first round.
Draz does 6.5 attacks = 1.17 wounds to her.

Again, this doesn't use combat drugs, so most of the time (barring leadership and initiative rolls) she will actually be doing better. Also, yes, I did include his extra attacks on wounds of 6 in these numbers.

She also can join any unit unlike him, and has assault grenades and will get a Warlord trait.
The only loss is the Eternal Warrior thing - but I get a model that costs substantially less basically just for losing that.

I think Lelith would take him straight up.

What he performs better than them against is stuff that has T5+ *and* also has a 2-3+ armor save (as otherwise it's better to just shoot it with poison weaponry anyway) *and* that hopefully isn't in cover and/or has trouble with 2/3+ saves for him and his Incubi to mulch.

I consider that too narrow of an optimal target to be worth the points.
Basically it's bikes, like, that's what he helps with, as long as they aren't in cover, and he and his Incubi will suffer a bit against them in the Grav gun overwatch....but...eh. I'd rather have Grotesques jump bikes, personally, but that is about Draz's sweet spot.

I don't think that's worth it.

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Drahazar
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar 7ed rules   Tue Oct 21 2014, 09:59

Against most beat sticks barring terrain he will be going first.  I would keep him in a four man incubi unit on a venom so he will get rampage most of the time.  I believe he will take out most beat sticks before they hit him and if they have double his toughness at least he can't be ID.  And he can really rack up those attacks.

I just think people are making him out worse than he is.  He certainly not an auto include and he is not the worst.  out of 1-10 I give him a 7.

And yes I believe lilith will take him for sure. Though I would take a normal Succubus over lilith cheaper and gets the same job done better. But that's for another thread. I miss the lilith of old from third.
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar 7ed rules   Tue Oct 21 2014, 10:39

Assuming said beatstick has three wounds (pretty much a minimum to be considered such) and a 3++ he's gonna need to cause around 9 wounds to reliably take them out, which if he wounds on 3's is minimum of 13 hits, again assuming he hits on threes that's 19 attacks. Yeah, he's not got that many attacks, whichever way you dice it.

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar 7ed rules   Tue Oct 21 2014, 11:02

I wouldn't even rate him 7/10 at his special task of killing 2+ Armour models who have no Invuln and are in the open... I mean, here's the first round against... a Space Marine Captain w/THSS:

Drazhar: 1.48
Captain: 1.67

So, Drazhar wins Round 2 (dying along with the Captain if he fails his Concussive T test) but... well... yeah... 50 points difference and the Captain can actually be made better.

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar 7ed rules   Tue Oct 21 2014, 13:40

@Drahazar wrote:
And yes I believe lilith will take him for sure. Though I would take a normal Succubus over lilith cheaper and gets the same job done better. But that's for another thread. I miss the lilith of old from third.
Actually you really can't, as shown by my above number crunching a Succubus will defeat Draz more often than not, but it does almost kill her in the effort. Lelith will do better than the Succubus by a solid margin no matter how you equip the Succubus - Lelith is actually pretty darn good at killing things that try to use high WS, high Init, and power wapons as their scary aspect - which is Draz to a tee. He's almost the picture perfect example of what she kills best.

@MyNameDidntFit wrote:
I wouldn't even rate him 7/10 at his special task of killing 2+ Armour models who have no Invuln and are in the open... I mean, here's the first round against... a Space Marine Captain w/THSS:
I'm all for mocking Draz as much as the next guy - but you can't say you're rating him at his "job" of killing 2+ saves with no invulnerable and then point out that he's a wuss versus a guy with an invulnerable save Laughing

He would be good at lkilling 2+ saves that lack an invulnerable (also, it would be nice if the opponent would keep them out of cover, thanks!).
The problem is - there's not actually that many things out there that meet this criteria.
And Draz is also rather expensive to do a task that is hard to find, and that DE can do in other ways with more affordable units that have more utility and adaptability than him.

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar 7ed rules   Tue Oct 21 2014, 14:58

The funny thing is that Drazhar was brought down in cost to be 10 points less than Jain Zar but I wouldn't say they are identical and I would say that Jain Zar is a far better deal for what that model brings to the table.

At the end of the day though I don't think it's fair to look at Drazhar ONLY when it comes to dueling, because he is a 1 man wrecking crew when it comes to mulching up infantry models.  It's just more or less a forgone conclusion that at some point a meatier opponent is going to go in and challenge him (because they are in a position to do so because they are better).  Orks, Tau, Necrons, Guardsman, MEQs and TEQs he's more or less going to have his way with (and of course his inevitable incubi bodyguard).

I certainly do wish he was closer to Lelith's cost however, but I think it goes back to the fact he has the EW USR. Look who he is in company with: Logan, Draigo, Calgar, The Sanguinor, Lysander, Sammael, Abaddon, the phoenix lords, endurance casting psykers, and shield eternal bearing Space Marines.  Other than Sammael he's probably the weakest one in there.
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