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Gru6y
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PostSubject: Fixing Wyches   Tue Oct 14 2014, 13:04

Hi all,

It pretty much has been agreed that the 7ed codex has missed a great opportunity to fix our crazy latex wrapped gladiators. Shame on GW.
I am lucky enough to have a gaming partner who much prefers to develop house rules when needed than to simply ditch unplayable models.
Therefore, I have a chance to propose some rules adjustments in order to fix the unit and would like to ask you to aid me in this as I lack both DE experience and competitive gaming experience.

The tweak can be done in two ways: either work with the current rules or develop them from the very beginning. TBH, I'd much prefer to work with what is currently available so that the changes are as little invasive as possible.

I would like Wyches to be the quintessence of glass-cannonness. A high risk / high reward unit that will be respected on the battlefield but will crumble if misused.

The 'die to a sneeze' part is already covered by GW, thank you very much, but the part when they actually kill stuff needs some work.

I would like to leave the cost of the unit and upgrades as they are and tweek the stats and USRs to make them more killy. I would also like to avoid giving them haywire grenades back as killing armour is not what the unit is intended to do.

So, my thoughts:
Extend their 4++ to the entire assault phase (pretty much a no-brainer)
plus any one of the below:
- Give them hatred (kind of meh and would impact the usefulness of part of the special weapons)
- Give them rage (I believe this is better than hatred and would also increase the gains from Wych weapons by adding more attacks to the profile)
- Give them Shred (though, I believe, way better than hatred, still hinders the usefulness of Wych weapons)
- Give them Rending (to be honest this one, I like the most as it gives them the most umph in cc and nicely works with other rules given by PfP, drugs and special weapons.


What are your thoughts?
All c&c will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Gru6y

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Tue Oct 14 2014, 13:34

I don't see myself why wyches should have a 4++ against overwatch - it goes completely against the reason for the rule in the first place and would exmplify the concept of 'broken', by which i mean they're somehow able to dodge bullets when sprinting full speed into combat but not when they moving cautiously and carefully the rest of the time.

They are highly trained gladiatrixes, and the dodge rule represents them being so agile and quick in combat that their opponents struggle to land a blow. It's actually represented poorly in rules terms because the dodge rule should (to keep with the fluff) reduce the number of hits scored against the unit rather than saving wounds. How about reduce the number of hits against the unit by 1 for each wych in base to base contact with another model on the turn they charge. That would more accurately represent the fluff without meaning they can dodge bullets in the assault phase but not the shooting phase. It would also encourage them to take onunits in such a way that each wych tries to fight a single opponent, which is more appropriate to their fluff too. Take away their 4+ invun and leave them with just FNP and their armour save. I'd also introduce a rule to state that any wyches that die during overwatch still make 1 attack in combat - to represent their drug fuelled bodies fighting on despite grievous wounds (there's something similar in the Sentinels of Terra supplement).

I'd then give them poisoned 3+ weapons with rending on 6's to represent the stronger venom applied by something like a stab wound in comparison to a rifle or pistol shot.

This would mean that for 10 wyches charging a tactical marine squad with flamer. let's say 2 hits with flamer and 2 from bolters on overwatch, causing 3 wounds (1 of which you save with FNP becuase you don't charge without it). 2 dead means 2 attacks from them, plus 3 attacks each from the rest totals 26, which means 13 hits, 8 wounds. 2 rending and 2 failed normal saves makes 4 dead marines leaving 6 alive. Because they only have 1 attack base though and you've still got 8 wyches alive, none can strike back.

Next turn you get 16 attacks, 8 hits and say 6 wounds, 1 of which is rending. should net another couple of marines dead, leaving three, who hit twice in return causing a single wound.

Using the same example though against models with multiple attacks (say a veteran squad) the marines still get 6 attacks in the first combat phase, hitting you 3 times and (probably) causing a couple of kills.

That's a very rough first draft of how I'd write them anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Tue Oct 14 2014, 13:38

I would say as they get rage anyway its fine. Rending is too good for a 10 point troop choice. I would only offer 1 change (alongside dodge in overwatch) and that would be to give them 2 base attacks and 3 for bloodbrides. I think you then have a simple change, which turn them into a close combat unit that can hurt early and chop through stuff later as well.

Keeps it simple and balanced. In fact, most of the stuff can be tweaked with little things to fix them!

Perhaps if they kill a unit they gain +1 on the PfP chart

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Tue Oct 14 2014, 14:25

I concur, though I might go as far as to say +2 to base attacks AND Counter Attack.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Tue Oct 14 2014, 16:30

Grub wrote:
Rending is too good for a 10 point troop choice.

Daemonettes have Rending, and a 5++ save, and run 3 inches faster, and are 9 points each. Of course, you can't compare the two, wyches have plasma grenades, etc., but clearly Rending is not too good for 10 point troops!

I'm more or less okay with how wyches turned out, but if it were up to me I would lower their cost to 8 points each.

... And give Rending to the Razorflails instead of Blade Whip, and make the Shardnet & Impaler reduce one opponent to 1 attack. And let Bloodbrides take as many Wych Cult Weapons as they wanted.

... Also let the Hekatrix, Syren, or Succubus buy a 'Performance Style' power, that would affect her unit while she is still alive, such as Monster Hunter, Precision Strikes, and Shrouded.

... And give them their haywire grenades back.

... And give them a 6++ dodge save against shooting.

But they're honestly not too bad, the way they are. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Tue Oct 14 2014, 16:34

Good point with daemonettes , but we already get combat drugs, grenades, potentially fnp, furious charge and rage! To give them rending as well seems excessive!

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Tue Oct 14 2014, 16:59

According to the fluff shouldn't Wyches have a little more than WS4? This has always been an issue I've had with them, it bugs me every game i have to be honest lol. It was easier to deal with back when Wych weapons (3rd ed 2nd ed codex) were around.
I was hoping for WS5 on Wyches and 6 on bloodbrides with this codex.

Haywire grenades on the full squad was silly to begin with, i fully expected, and was happy, to see them go. While the new PtP does help i see no reason why Wyches had no boosts in the new book and remained the same cost.

A smal boost in WS and rending in combat, i feel would fix them. Meh QQ GW :p

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Tue Oct 14 2014, 17:51

Well, considering that space meringues have WS4, and they're the finest of the fine and the best there is at what they do, and so on, I suppose not.

Grub wrote:
Good point with daemonettes , but we already get combat drugs, grenades, potentially fnp, furious charge and rage! To give them rending as well seems excessive!

Yeah, you really can't compare the two, except that you do, because in order to evaluate something you need a point of reference, so you ask, 'Who else is a close combat type with T3, S3 and no armour, from the Troops section who die a lot if anything shoots at them?' Why, daemonettes, but at least they're one point less, have a 5++ daemon save, and rending.

Actually the best comparison is to Eldar Storm Guardians, except that no one ever uses Storm Guardians, to the point that GW doesn't even make them and you need a special kit to convert them if you want them. Guardians just don't set the sexy world on fire because they have a third Troops option (Dire Aveenos) that is so much better. Imagine if DE had a third Troops option that was like Trueborn, but with Ghostplate Armour and Shardcarbines... no one would ever bring anything else!

So you look at Storm Guardians, and they are 9 points each. They have slightly better armour (not really much difference) and Wyches have better Initiative. They get sho-ryuken pistols, which are a bit better than splinter pistols. Aside from Power From Pain (which is an army rule, and not specific to them), they're actually very similar, but Wyches have a slight edge with Combat Drugs, so you figure that's worth 1 point extra. Hence, 10 points each.

What you've forgotten is that there's a reason why no one cares about Storm Guardians. In the DE codex, for 2 points less you get Kabalites, who are more useful, and you've got close combat covered with, oh, so many other options, so Wyches end up as an overcosted unit that no one prefers unless they really like the models.

Oh well. The next supplement will be for Wyches, and it will rock. Sometime in another year or two. Or three.
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Wed Oct 15 2014, 00:01

Barking Agatha wrote:

Yeah, you really can't compare the two, except that you do, because in order to evaluate something you need a point of reference, so you ask, 'Who else is a close combat type with T3, S3 and no armour, from the Troops section who die a lot if anything shoots at them?' Why, daemonettes, but  at least they're one point less, have a 5++ daemon save, and rending.


What you've forgotten is that there's a reason why no one cares about Storm Guardians. In the DE codex, for 2 points less you get Kabalites, who are more useful, and you've got close combat covered with, oh, so many other options, so Wyches end up as an overcosted unit that no one prefers unless they really like the models.  

Well you can compare, but its over simplistic to assume that they are the same based on stats. Its an argument of composition, same stats/similar rolls therefore the same. To an extent, yes. But you must take into account army dynamics, access to transports for example, durability, special rules etc. Daemonettes have rending and wyches have the same stats therefore they should be the same. Nope. In that case, daemonettes should get FnP and furious charge and rage and access to +1 of their stats, its daft. You can compare in a general sense, but variety is good, its what makes armies unique.

Storm guardians? Its a poor analogy. We have access to two troops. One that can stand up for itself in a fight and one that can shoot its way out. What you are suggesting is that because kabalites are cheaper, you would use them as a close combat unit if you were running an assault army? Yes Wyches have to be used like a scalpel now rather than a sledgehammer, but they are by no means the equivalent of storm guardians. They have a roll to fill and can be used in that roll. Yes they may need a small tweak. I would say PfP one turn higher in a squad perhaps, one more base attack maybe a point reduction. Best way is to play test them, see what works out well (then tell gamesworkshop how to playtest), not to push them to over the top standards.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Wed Oct 15 2014, 03:09

Grub wrote:
Rending is too good for a 10 point troop choice.
There is an interesting compare/contrast with Lhameans as well as Nettes.
I'm pretty sure GW just rectally extracts these numbers, myself.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Wed Oct 15 2014, 06:40

Grub wrote:
Storm guardians? Its a poor analogy. We have access to two troops. One that can stand up for itself in a fight and one that can shoot its way out.

If it weren't for Dire Aveenos, that would be exactly the same for Craftworld Eldar: Guardian Dependers would be their 'Kabalites', and Strum Guardians would be their 'Wyches'.

Grub wrote:
What you are suggesting is that because kabalites are cheaper, you would use them as a close combat unit if you were running an assault army?

Nah, I've already tried my wyches with the new rules and they worked out great. They ought to be a point or two less, though. Smile

Actually, funny we should be talking about Wyches, because I've been thinking about this:

15 Wyches with everything (Hekatrix, Agoniser, Hydras, Onions, Pickles, and Mustard).
+
Haemonculus (from a Coven detachment!) with Woopwoop Portal, Simon Says, Scissorhands and Sting Pistol

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they turn up on Turn 2, as you would hope they would, on that turn they get:

- Real Feel No Pain (not discount Feel No Pain)
- Fear
- Fearless
- -1 to Ld 12" around

Which is pretty good. And on the next turn the Haemy can use the Simon Says to get Fleet, and they can assault with Furious Charge.

That's about 345 points though, and I think it ought to be more like 300. But still, pretty good?
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Thu Oct 30 2014, 00:57

Barking Agatha wrote:
Oh well. The next supplement will be for Wyches, and it will rock. Sometime in another year or two. Or three.

Which begs the question - will Power from Pain be redone for the Cults, a la the Coven chart? If so, what will it look like?

(Incidentally it could be an opportunity to grandfather a rule in, eg Turn 1 they all get X)

Much as I'd love to see Rending, or even Precision Strike, I don't think I'd want to give up Feel No Pain or Furious Charge to get them.

Any ideas?
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Thu Oct 30 2014, 08:18

Rending would make a huge difference for wyches - a unit of ten could then at least rely reasonably on killing 4-5 marines on the charge.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Mon Jan 19 2015, 19:33

Personally, I'd go for pseudo-rending á la Monofilament:
Every to-wound role of 6 from a Wych/Bloodbride/Succubus's Close Combat Weapon or Wych Weapon wounds automatically and counts as AP 2. Vehicles are not affected.

The difference is that they couldn't potentially land a glancing hit against AV 12 with only a combat knife. That would be kinda silly if you think about it.
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Mon Jan 19 2015, 21:52

Rokuro wrote:
Personally, I'd go for pseudo-rending á la Monofilament:
Every to-wound role of 6 from a Wych/Bloodbride/Succubus's Close Combat Weapon or Wych Weapon wounds automatically and counts as AP 2. Vehicles are not affected.

The difference is that they couldn't potentially land a glancing hit against AV 12 with only a combat knife. That would be kinda silly if you think about it.

Actually, after reading the books I thought of something similar. Wyches are agile fighters which want to land lethal strikes once they get the perfect opportunity.
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Wed Apr 15 2015, 03:05

Why not give our girls a formation. Like say

3+ units of wyches
2+ unit of blood brides
2+ succubus
0-1 lelith hesperax

Rules - every model in the formation gains piercing strike (on a to wound roll of 6 the wound is resolved at ap2)

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Tue May 26 2015, 21:00

I think the "design story" of Wyches is that they're supposed to be extremely cheap close combat models. If that's the case, any change you make to their rules needs to acknowledge how many dice you'll end up throwing at whatever problem they're trying to solve.

This is why Rending on 6's is a potentially dangerous rule. When Wyches cost very little, they can end up producing a boatload of Wound rolls. The statistical difference between 5 Wyches in CC and 20 Wyches in CC is huge when you introduce something like Rending.

The main issue I think people have with Dark Eldar Wyches is that they don't seem to hit worth a damn and they can't survive long enough to get into close combat, which is theoretically where their point expenditure starts to return its value. But survival and glass cannon are diametrically opposed.

TL;DR: Rending is fine so long as you either bump their point cost, or make it the result of an optional extra-cost weapon available to, say, 1 in every 5 Wyches.
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Tue May 26 2015, 23:09

Wyches don't hit worth a damn. Wyches can't take a hit worth a damn. In short, there is no incentive to spend the effort to get a fragile unit into combat when that unit can't do anything once it gets there.

Banshees are three points more, have power swords, can't be overwatched, have a 4+ save and charge an extra 3 inches...... sure they are elites, but with 7th the FOC chart slot difference hardly matters.

Anyone who compares the two and thinks giving wyches rending is op has no idea what they are talking about. Or are masochistic. One of the two.

Sorry if that was worded strongly, but I feel strongly about it. I have 50 wyches from fifth codex when they did something.

Genestealers are what, 14 points? Have an armor save that's better, higher toughness, infiltrate, higher strength, and rending. And still no one uses them. GW overpriced CC units as a whole. Seriously. Name a 10-15 point assault unit people take? Assault marines are garbage too, at least in assault. Maybe flayed ones, but comparing them to wyches is depressing.


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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Tue Jun 02 2015, 09:14

The thing about a 'better armour save' is that there's actually next to no difference between an armour save of 5+, 6+, and no armour at all, because every weapon in the game that you're likely to be shot with is at least AP 5. Very rarely you will be shot at with shotguns, lasguns, or some other AP- thing, or your transport will explode, and then 5+ is twice as good as 6+, but the vast majority of the time it doesn't matter.

The magic starts at an armour save of 4+, because that's when you actually get to roll dice and it's a 50-50 chance of not dying.

It matters more in close combat, since most attacks in close combat are AP-. Unfortunately, with no way to survive being shot at it becomes very difficult to make it to close combat, and if your opponent knows that your troops die when shot at, they will shoot at them. In any case it's irrelevant for wyches, who have their dodge save in combat anyway.

Genestealers are arguably even worse off, at 14 points each. It's just not a good game in which to be lightly-armoured and meant for melee!
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Wed Jun 03 2015, 03:24

Barking Agatha wrote:
The thing about a 'better armour save' is that there's actually next to no difference between an armour save of 5+, 6+, and no armour at all, because every weapon in the game that you're likely to be shot with is at least AP 5. Very rarely you will be shot at with shotguns, lasguns, or some other AP- thing, or your transport will explode, and then 5+ is twice as good as 6+, but the vast majority of the time it doesn't matter.

The magic starts at an armour save of 4+, because that's when you actually get to roll dice and it's a 50-50 chance of not dying.

It matters more in close combat, since most attacks in close combat are AP-. Unfortunately, with no way to survive being shot at it becomes very difficult to make it to close combat, and if your opponent knows that your troops die when shot at, they will shoot at them. In any case it's irrelevant for wyches, who have their dodge save in combat anyway.

Genestealers are arguably even worse off, at 14 points each. It's just not a good game in which to be lightly-armoured and meant for melee!

All true points, although a 5+ helps against explodes results, genestealers have no vehicles so... good point!

My basic intention was to point out that there are very few good assault units in the 10-20 point range. They are either cheaper so they can be taken in large numbers, or more expensive and tougher/harder hitting.

Onto a way to fix wyches! Give them an ability like the homunculus to buff power from pain around them.

Peerless performance.
Every dark eldar unit inside of 12 inches of a unit with this special rule, including the unit itself,  gains plus 1 to the power from pain chart if the unit with this special rule either charged this turn or is locked in combat. If a character with this special rule is in a challenge add an additional 1 to the chart.

Trophy wrack (Heckatrix upgrade)
Peerless performance effects all units within 18 inches.

Bam! Fluffy way to make wyches useful!
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Wed Jun 03 2015, 19:22

Hmm... how about this? Add the following special rule to all wyches, bloodbrides, succubi, and Lelith: 'Kung Fu Fighting: 'To Hit' rolls of 6 made by this model in close combat wound automatically (do not roll to wound) regardless of the target's Toughness value.' Would that make them dangerous enough to justify their other weaknesses? You can even send them up against monstruous or gargantuan creatures. That's a little bit frightening, but it might work, with expert timing.

I'm struck by the fact that they took haywire grenades away from them. Was it too much for a squad of 5 wyches to be able to take out necron monoliths and land raiders? Fair enough, but then they turn around and give the same haywire grenades to Swooping Hawks, plus the ability to put them on aeoroplanes! What the hell?

I can think of three explanations. First, that the Craftworld Codex was written by your kindly Aunt Annie, who drives a sports car and likes to spoil you, whereas the Dark Eldar Codex was written by your mean Aunt Gertrude who drinks vinegar all day and believes in thrashing children for their own good.

Second, that they're trying to push you into buying Swooping Hawks. If Wyches had retained their haywire grenades, a Craftworld player might have been tempted to ally them in and ignore the Swooping Hawks, so to remove that temptation they took haywire grenades away from wyches and even added the ability for the hawks to haywire flyers. Plus the new Autarch even comes with wings so that they can be joined by him. Now will you buy the damned things? Please?

And third, that it's our own fault. For the past few years, whenever anyone here on the Dark City argued that wyches were in trouble and needed a boost, they were immediately countered by the stalwarts of this forum with, 'Wyches are fine!', 'Are you mad? If anything they're op!' and of course, 'If you can't make good use of the overflowing cup of awesome power that is Wyches, you must be some kind of subhuman moron and it's a scandal that you are allowed to mingle in polite company!' which was a bit harsh, I thought. If I were a GW designer reading that, I might reach the conclusion that, 'Well, they seem happy enough with Wyches as they are. No need to do anything there.'

And now everyone goes, 'Alas, poor wyches, they are so crap!' and we talk about how to fix them. Really? Now we agree, after the damage is done? When you fought so vehemently against any improvement to them before? Nuh-uh. Wyches are fine, you said. Go ahead then, show us wretched mortals your invincible wych-based army, o superior ones. Well? Fixing wyches, indeed.

Not that I'm bitter, or anything. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Wed Jun 03 2015, 22:58

That was probably the most entertaining thing I've read all day.

Mind you, we have no reason to believe that GW's designers pay any attention to what the players say (and some reason to believe the opposite). Also, I'm not sure about the making things awesome to sell more models theory; the Voidraven finally got a model, but became not awesome, while Grotesques became awesome, and didn't.

As long as were Wychlisting, I'd like to see Wych weapons work like they did in the older codex (not the oldest codex): squad upgrade, +1 point per model, no member of a unit fighting the Wyches in close combat counts as being equipped with an additional close combat weapon, all enemies with unmodified Strength below 6 halve their WS (rounding up) for attacks made against the Wyches.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Thu Jun 04 2015, 15:22

Calyptra wrote:
Also, I'm not sure about the making things awesome to sell more models theory; the Voidraven finally got a model, but became not awesome, while Grotesques became awesome, and didn't.

Hmm... well, put your tinfoil hat on. It seems to me that there's a trend for Finecast models - including grotesques - to be getting a boost in rules. It also occurs to me that Finecast must have been a tremendous investment that, five years on, maybe hasn't been the overwhelming success they might have hoped it would be, and seems to be in the process of being phased out. If it were me, I would want to make back as much of that investment as possible before giving up on it completely, so I would make Grotesques awesome, for example, and then deliberately not give them new models, hoping that some people would buy the Finecast ones instead of converting another box of rat ogres, or whatever. Give that a try for a year or so, and only then bring out new models and retire the old one, with a tear for the money that it cost to make them and that we will never recoup.

The voidraven doesn't need to sell by the scores, it just needs to perform up to standards. If a cycle nears its end and the voidraven has underperformed, we might see it suddenly have unlimited void mines, which happen to be strength-D and large blasts, and did we mention it's a super-heavy flyer and only 100 points? Oh yes.

As for wyches, let's be honest. If the codex had made them reasonably good, would it really have sent you out to buy more of them, or would you just dust off the ones you already have? It makes more sense in the short term to make them rubbish, so that you'll be forced to go out and buy something else that you don't already own.
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Thu Jun 04 2015, 22:28

Barking Agatha wrote:
Calyptra wrote:
Also, I'm not sure about the making things awesome to sell more models theory; the Voidraven finally got a model, but became not awesome, while Grotesques became awesome, and didn't.


As for wyches, let's be honest. If the codex had made them reasonably good, would it really have sent you out to buy more of them, or would you just dust off the ones you already have? It makes more sense in the short term to make them rubbish, so that you'll be forced to go out and buy something else that you don't already own.

Eh... I bought a new box of wyches, a box of the new quins, and witch elf bitz. Combined with some scavenged wyches that was enough for 20 quins! I run them as quins but imagine them as a wych cult infatuated with improv!
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Join date : 2015-06-21

PostSubject: Re: Fixing Wyches   Sun Jul 26 2015, 07:41

@Gru6y: I've been working on a homebrew codex and have just finished adding Wyches and Bloodbrides. I'd appreciate your feedback, along with some estimates on good base points costs.

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My homebrew codex is really coming along. Check it out here, and feel free to post a comment!
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