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 The hidden gem in our codex; The Disintergrator Cannon

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TheDuke
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PostSubject: The hidden gem in our codex; The Disintergrator Cannon   Wed Aug 17 2011, 13:00

As we all know DE have tons of AI and AT in any standard list, we have lots of ways to deal with hordes, the smexy Splinter cannon being just one of them. However, I feel that a certain gun has gone under the raider ahem.. radar, and as you can tell by the title, that gun is the Disintergrator Cannon. I don't think I've seen a single list with any dissie in except on the odd Razorwing. But why? I really don't understand why, so I decided to do a few calculations to put forward my case for the dissie.

First of all lets look at it's stats;

DC: Str5 AP2 Heavy 3- (Can only be taken on vehicles.)

Consdering they can only be taken on vehicles lets compare a 2x SC Venom and a DC raider.

On average a Venom with two splinter cannon will do 1.33 wounds on marines.
-The disintergrator will do the same amount of wounds.

So while they do inflict the same amount of casulties against marines, what are the individual pros from -each gun.

Pros that both share;
They are on fast vehicles, so every gun will be able fire.
They both have 36" range.
They are both very good at AI fire.

Disintegrator;
-3 shots
-Better against heavy infantry (terminators and the like)
-Beats feel no pain (You know BA, GK Paladins, probally 'Crons when they get a new book_
-Can take down light vehicles (armour 10 like ya know, Raiders, or Land Speeders.)
-We can even use our speed to outflank IG Chimera's and punish them with lots of Str5 shots against AV10. (Not hard to do as DE)

Splinter Cannon;
-12 Poisioned Shots (4+)
-Defensive weapons, meaning both can be fired on a Venom that moves 12".
-Better than DC at shooting monsterous creatures.
- Has the potential to kill more that the DC.

My main point is that I think DC's should see more use in a Dark Eldar army. We as Dark Eldar have poision across the board anyways so AI or anti MC fire is not something we lack. The DC fills something that I've seen many people complain that DE lack. Lots of mid strength shots. The DC provides this, you just have to use your speed and brains to get them into a good posistion, and isn't this what we as Dark Eldar players do anyway.

I hope some of you will find this useful or at that it at least gives you something to think about.
Cheers,

TheDuke

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Raucir Lustingclaw
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PostSubject: Re: The hidden gem in our codex; The Disintergrator Cannon   Wed Aug 17 2011, 13:40

My anti-marine list has two Ravagers toting six DCs between them. Plus with AP2 it'll ignore any FNP saves - That's potentially 18 shots killing on threes! Blangels players beware!



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PreacherOfDeath
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PostSubject: Re: The hidden gem in our codex; The Disintergrator Cannon   Wed Aug 17 2011, 14:12

The disintegrator will only ever inflict 1.33 wounds. 4 wounds average is a lot better.

If you're not taking a Flickerfield, the venom is 5 points more. If you are, the venom is 5 points less.

Most good heavy infantry have invulns. Venom Cannon is better against invulns.

S5 is TOTALLY unreliable against vehicles. Even if you're planning on AV10, I'd hestitate to use S6. 2 Shots hit. .33 glance, .33 penetrate. You have a 33% chance to stun, immobilize, or destroy the vehicle. If you're only concerned about destroying it, that drops to an 11% chance. This against AV10 by the way, and only AV10. Open-topped marginally improves these chances, but that says nothing about "Chimeras," trukks, landspeeders, or any opponent bad enough to let you behind his razorbacks/dreads/wave serpents.

Could it work on Ravagers, if you were horrifically AI deficient? Maybe, I'll entertain that possibility. But I can't remember any list I, my DE playing friends in real life (Including the guard player who jumped on the bandwagon), anyone I've seen at a RL tournament, or any succesful tournament player online go, "Oh man, no more Dark Lances, PLEASE! Anything but Dark Lances in my Heavy Support!" Usually, even the people who take Missiles on a Razorwing or a Pain/Parasite Engine seem to wish they could also have more Dark Lances somehow.

Also, Dark Lances ignore FNP too. DOA doesn't bring vehicles, and Sanguinary Guard/combat squads are killed just as well by Dark Lance Ravagers. It's the 10 mans that the Disintegrator starts to pull ahead.
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Sorrowshard
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PostSubject: Re: The hidden gem in our codex; The Disintergrator Cannon   Wed Aug 17 2011, 16:08

Venoms lol at stuff in cover too, Disie's suffer badly , given the state of the psycannon filth I fail to understand why our primary anti tank weapon is so meh/expensive and that disinti's seemingly have no place.

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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: The hidden gem in our codex; The Disintergrator Cannon   Wed Aug 17 2011, 16:55

Disentegrator is good against foot marines.

Sadly with the state of mech currently in the game, its just not that useful. I like them, but not useful compared to DL.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: The hidden gem in our codex; The Disintergrator Cannon   Wed Aug 17 2011, 18:05

I sort of feel you answered your own question - they do the same number of wounds on Marines in the open.
That's the be all and end all of the debate, really. Why?

If they do the same to Marines in the open - that means S.Cannons are better at Marines in cover (like, oh, Long Fangs)
If they do equal damage to Marines in the open that means the S.Cannon is better versus anything its AP5 works for (Guard, Orks, et al)
Also, as you noted, S.Cannons are generally superior vs. MCs (though, also, as you noted, this doesn't matter so much - MCs don't scare DE)

So, what's the advantage to taking the Dissie? It will be 5 points more if you want to take it with FFs (most do) and it will be more vulnerable to weapon destroyed results, and it's either as good as or worse than the S.Cannon in killing everything except Terminators.

If Terminators became a bigger issue and were spammed more regularly, I suspect you'd see a rise in Dissies. But, any Termie spam force will generally have issues with all of our Blasters/Lances anyway...and at that point, the S.Cannons are fine fire support.

The Dissie is a really good gun without a real purpose in the Dex.

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SirTainly
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PostSubject: Re: The hidden gem in our codex; The Disintergrator Cannon   Wed Aug 17 2011, 19:37

GAR wrote:
Disentegrator is good against foot marines.

Sadly with the state of mech currently in the game, its just not that useful. I like them, but not useful compared to DL.

You know what, it's posts like this that cost me a few games! ;-)

Our meta is foot marines and I have have Ravagers full of Lances!

That said lately I've been playing lots of IG, and when they field a mech list, Str 5 would be a real handicap. If you get to tailor your list for games, then definitely have 3dis-Ravagers for use against Marines (I'll be making one so equipped soon) but otherwise DL is more versatile, with Venoms bringing the anti inf guns.

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GreySeerZ
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PostSubject: Re: The hidden gem in our codex; The Disintergrator Cannon   Wed Aug 17 2011, 20:08

Yea, footslogging marines are far and few between in my local meta. Sadly disintigraters just don't do much that a venom with splinter cannons can't. My dark lances, on the other hand, provide the only real ranged AT at the moment. That said, I've begun using my razorwing more and more due to its ability to perform both roles. 4 large blasts, even if they allow saves, seems to kill just as many marines as scattering small templates. Throw in 2 dark lance shots and splinter cannon shots to boot, and it makes a mess of most foot squads, while only lacking 1 dark lance found on ravagers.
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PostSubject: Re: The hidden gem in our codex; The Disintergrator Cannon   Wed Aug 17 2011, 21:02

All very valid points thankyou all your comments. I must say you are all starting to say back to the SC, maybe 6th will be the true rise of this weapon. Hwere I suspect all infrantry armies will be very deadly.

TheDuke

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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: The hidden gem in our codex; The Disintergrator Cannon   Wed Aug 17 2011, 21:07

Its not all bad.

DC would just plain rock against against pure terminator armies. Makes the TH/SS not so deadly when they pop like regular marines.

6th. Who knows what 6th will bring.

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PostSubject: Re: The hidden gem in our codex; The Disintergrator Cannon   Wed Aug 17 2011, 21:17

Honestly, Dissie was THE biggest disappointment in the new book for me. Even trumped loosing my shadowfielded Haemie on a jetbike.

This went from a Str 7 AP2 blast, or str 4 ap3 heavy 3 weapon to it's current incarnation as the old Eldar Starcannon. Str 5 AP2 is great for very specific situations (mostly terminators), but the old Dissie was a way better rounded weapon, and comparable to a dark lance.

It basically falls into the issue the old shredder had, there isn't anything that makes the weapon feel better than its lance counterpart and they are the same price. In really needed an extra rule to put in on par, something like an extra shot for every 3" less than 12 you travel. 5 per dissie at 6" and 7 per dissie stationary would have made me consider it over the lance.
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PostSubject: Re: The hidden gem in our codex; The Disintergrator Cannon   Wed Aug 17 2011, 22:31

how about a heavy four str 8 twin linked gun or maybe a heavy four str7 gun with Rending ?

Lances were good last edition their cost has gone up , availability down and they are less effective, the dissie did take a kisck in the balls.

What frustrates me is that they harp on about Dark eldar technological superiority but in every way the imperial variant are at least better if not more cost effective.

A DL is exactly the same as an ML on vehicle targets , yet costs more , has shorter range and lacks duality, a lascannon is priced similarly but again it has better range and the str9 is better most of the time.

Dissie compared to a plasma cannon ? Ill have the plas cannon please ?

normal melta gun is far more reliable than a melta lance due to not being totally reliant on good dice to pene , they are only equal vs AV14 ...

So where is the technological edge ? it's not represented by scarier rules or by better point efficiency ?

They recognised 5th had weakened the psycannon somewhat so they gave it a major boost and made it spammable throughout the whole army , talk about double standards.....

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PostSubject: Re: The hidden gem in our codex; The Disintergrator Cannon   Wed Aug 17 2011, 23:45

I'm not sure, if actually in the codex or just in the developer's interview, but this was lampshaded pretty badly.

The question was why DE don't use the best weapons possible and the answer was that they don't want to kill their prey to easily, but to savor the pain.

So just to to say it in plain terms: We use crappy weapons, because we are so uberleeticiousmegaevil!

WTF?

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PostSubject: Re: The hidden gem in our codex; The Disintergrator Cannon   Thu Aug 18 2011, 05:59

TheDuke wrote:
All very valid points thankyou all your comments. I must say you are all starting to say back to the SC, maybe 6th will be the true rise of this weapon. Hwere I suspect all infrantry armies will be very deadly.

TheDuke

I don't think the problem is with the lack of infantry... I think the problem is that the Splinter Cannon does the same job better. Venom spam's success is proof that infantry are still a threat.

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