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Deamon
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PostSubject: Freakish Spectacle   Tue Oct 14 2014, 01:10

So the rule says : Enemy unit within 12" of one or more models from THIS detachment suffer -1 ...

Does it mean that if I take a CAD with 2 formations from the coven book and they happen to both be within 12" of a enemy unit, it would take it's leadership test at -2?
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Tue Oct 14 2014, 11:02

Huh. I guess so. Within the formation it would not be cumulative, but because its from two formations it might indeed be, as it does specify the detchment rather than anything else.
Otherwise this sort of thing is usually phrased as "a unit from a BlahDeBlah Detachment", but that isn't the case here....
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Starkadder
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Tue Oct 14 2014, 11:56

Instead of two detachments, two formations might be a more points effective way of doing this? (otherwise you're buying at least 4 HQs...)
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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Tue Oct 14 2014, 14:03

@Deamon wrote:
So the rule says : Enemy unit within 12" of one or more models from THIS detachment suffer -1 ...

Does it mean that if I take a CAD with 2 formations from the coven book and they happen to both be within 12" of a enemy unit, it would take it's leadership test at -2?

Good catch! I haven't gotten the supplement yet, but these developments are making soulfright sound more and more potent.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Tue Oct 14 2014, 14:12

@lessthanjeff wrote:
@Deamon wrote:
So the rule says : Enemy unit within 12" of one or more models from THIS detachment suffer -1 ...

Does it mean that if I take a CAD with 2 formations from the coven book and they happen to both be within 12" of a enemy unit, it would take it's leadership test at -2?

Good catch!  I haven't gotten the supplement yet, but these developments are making soulfright sound more and more potent.

I think soulfright is looking quite good actually now that I've looked at it in more detail. WWP the armour of misery in between a couple of enemy units, use torment grenade launchers and a phantasm for two attempts, then add in wounds from other shooting, maybe charge in.

Can wyches take phantasm launchers (codex is at home)? Might weaken a unit enough to help them actually win a combat!

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Tue Oct 14 2014, 14:45

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Can wyches take phantasm launchers (codex is at home)? Might weaken a unit enough to help them actually win a combat!

The Hekatrix can take one, but it starts to make the unit quite expensive and they're still rubbish outside of this one gimmick (if it works).

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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Tue Oct 14 2014, 15:41

I tried to build a list around that idea. While I think it would be very potent against the non-imperial codexes, it force me to invest so many points in TGL that the list would be quite ineffective against marines...
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darkgear
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Tue Oct 14 2014, 19:38

As cool as it would be to stack our units onto enemy units and cripple their Leadership into the ground, let's review the rule's wording:

"Enemy units within 12" of one or more units from this detachment suffer -1 to their Leadership value."

1. All units in the Covenite Coterie count as being part of your detachment.
2. The rule says one or more units.

Therefore, unless you get 2 Coterie detachments, this trick won't work.

That being said, you're better matching up a Coterie Detachment with a Dark Eldar Detachment so you can apply the Armour of Misery and the Archangel of Pain on top of the Freakish Spectacle rules for a Pain bomb applied at -5 to Leadership.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Tue Oct 14 2014, 19:40

@darkgear wrote:
As cool as it would be to stack our units onto enemy units and cripple their Leadership into the ground, let's review the rule's wording:

"Enemy units within 12" of one or more units from this detachment suffer -1 to their Leadership value."

1. All units in the Covenite Coterie count as being part of your detachment.
2. The rule says one or more units.

Therefore, unless you get 2 Coterie detachments, this trick won't work.

If you look back at the opening post, you'll see that it does in fact ask about taking two formations.

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DingK
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Tue Oct 14 2014, 20:40

Since when does a rule stack with itself? Unless otherwise stated, it never does.

This is just another one of those badly proofread statements GW has been riddling books with. It's not as bad as the Splinter Rack, but surely, we all understand that, RAI, an enemy unit can only receive a single -1 penalty. Regardless of the number of units or detachments they are from.
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merse24
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Wed Oct 15 2014, 18:18

I agree. I originally thought that it said "from this formation", but it does in fact say this detachment. I don't believe that it would work.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Wed Oct 15 2014, 18:37

brb p121 - formations are a special type of detachment.

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valmir
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Wed Oct 15 2014, 18:56

BRB 121 - unless explicitly stated, special rules don't stack.

In the same way that nightshields don't stack with nightfighting, I'd say that multiple detachments with freakish spectacle don't reinforce one another.

Honestly, though, I think they should. Armies playing leadership shenanigans would only benefit the game overall, in my opinion. But then, in my opinion, army-wide ATSKNF shouldn't even be a thing.
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Norrin
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Thu Oct 16 2014, 00:35

What is 'CAD'?

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Starkadder
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Thu Oct 16 2014, 22:08

@valmir wrote:
BRB 121 - unless explicitly stated, special rules don't stack.

In the same way that nightshields don't stack with nightfighting, I'd say that multiple detachments with freakish spectacle don't reinforce one another.

Honestly, though, I think they should. Armies playing leadership shenanigans would only benefit the game overall, in my opinion. But then, in my opinion, army-wide ATSKNF shouldn't even be a thing.

Is that not in reference to the USRs? Nightfighting and nightshields don't stack because they both grant the USR stealth. In this case there is no USR referenced...

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valmir
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Thu Oct 16 2014, 23:28

But (also BRB 121) "special rules" aren't limited to those listed in the BRB. And I don't think this paragraph is limited to USR, either, although I'm not near my BRB at the moment, so can't check. In cotext, it's describing the hierarchy of modifiers and whatnot, isn't it?
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Fri Oct 17 2014, 01:32

If this is cumulative, it would be a pretty big deal for the codex/supplement combo. Going to be following this one to see what the consensus is.

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valmir
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Fri Oct 17 2014, 01:48

If it stacks, then there are some potentially interesting things that can be done. On the other hand, it requires you to sink enough points into Ld stuff that it definitely won't be an all-comers list. None of this works on Daemons, or any kind of power armour army at all.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Fri Oct 17 2014, 02:15

Quote :
None of this works on Daemons, or any kind of power armour army at all.

Could you explain that please?
Daemons dont have the Fearless USR. I agree with power armour armies as they have ATSKNF (except sisters) but nearly every other army is vulnerable.
Daemons eben double so as -2 Ld are potentially more casualties on an instability test.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Fri Oct 17 2014, 03:27

@valmir wrote:
On the other hand, it requires you to sink enough points into Ld stuff that it definitely won't be an all-comers list. None of this works on Daemons, or any kind of power armour army at all.

That's actually not really true as far as I can tell. There are only a few things that ATSKNF protects them from, and the negative leadership modifiers aren't part of that. So, if you're using something like Eldar allies with psychic shriek to take advantage of the armor of misery and freakish spectacle, then it will work just fine. Further, the wording of things like the "Archangel of Pain" specify that wounds can't be allocated to a MODEL with the fearless special rule. The fearless special rule doesn't confer to an entire unit. Only it's effects do. So, a unit with a fearless IC would just have wounds allocated to everything but the IC in the case of the archangel of pain.

The only problem I can see with this is that most competitive events are limiting armies to 2 detachments. I expect that to change as the various codices shift towards 7th ed rules, pushing more TO's to allow 3+ detachments. Currently, however, it is especially worrisome with detachments like the carnival of pain, which specifically require you to take 5+ detachments in order to take it, and specifically defines them all as independent detachments. Also, most other formations I've seen have given players more flexibility in unit selection, offering something like (2-4 Units of Hellions) instead of simply requiring a static (3 Units of Hellions). The lack of customization, and therefor lack of variety in lists is unfortunate.

I don't really feel like they had the game in mind when they were writing much of this stuff. I really think it was more about selling models and streamlining/dumbing down rules than to make an interesting and engaging game, which is a shame. Perhaps the recent loss of certain authors had something to do with this new direction they seem to be taking.

I appologize for the tangent, I simply can't help but thinking as I read through the various things they've recently released, "Do these writers even PLAY this game?"

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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Sat Oct 18 2014, 03:32

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:

I appologize for the tangent, I simply can't help but thinking as I read through the various things they've recently released, "Do these writers even PLAY this game?"
You are right about the Formations but I rather saw the fixed unit numbers as a point investment into a certain formation.
Sadly I have the same feeling when I read the special rules Sumps can give a Heamy, you can pick Poison 4+, but you're never gonna need it, unless you don't plan for CC and don't by a decent CC weapon (which has Poison 4+).

Another thing that strikes me is the Coven PfP. You start at Fearless and move up to Zealot. Seems logical but not if you notice that Zealot equals Fearless and Hatred.
Maybe writing Hatred in black on white refers too much to the Dark Elves? What poor logic, because I actually like simplification of the rules as a casual gamer.
The less rules, the better.

On topic: RAW I would say it stacks per Detachment. As you are investing points in each Formation.
RAI I think they wanted to put Coven Supplement? But that doesn't make sense as it is a Detachment special rule.
So no, even RAI it might be stackable with Detachments. So Carnival of pain would be really messy, as you need to keep track of all different formations per model.

Until now I've read it as being up to -1, non-stackable. Because it is the simpler and faster ruling.

In the end I wasn't thinking about investing in 3 Detachments but it might open up some cool combo's with Telepathy.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Sat Oct 18 2014, 06:08

@El_Jairo wrote:

Another thing that strikes me is the Coven PfP. You start at Fearless and move up to Zealot. Seems logical but not if you notice that Zealot equals Fearless and Hatred.

I actually don't like that they lose fearless and gain zealot, primarily because it seems like there is a trend of making special effects/abilities that those with ATSKNF and Fearless get immunity to, while Zealot, though mechanically identical, gets no mention.

This being the case, several units will gain immunity to various things when they gain the fearless special rule early on, only to lose said immunity later when they're "upgraded" to zealots.

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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Mon Nov 03 2014, 12:40

On the stacking topic, I think there's at least a plausible argument for a RAI interpretation of the rule stacking for multiple formations/detachments. The standard wording for this sort of rule has always been along the lines of "enemy units within x" of one or more models with this special rule". If it were worded like that it would be entirely unambiguous that it couldn't stack. Seems to me that the break from that format would indicate that it ought to.
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Mr. Ghoti
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Mon Nov 03 2014, 15:46

I agree to the fact that it is stackable, and here's my reasoning: the wording on something extremely similar! Tyranid's Shadow in the Warp special rule reads as follows: "All enemy units and models with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers special rules suffer a -3 penalty to their Leadership whilst they are within 12” of one or more models with the Shadow in the Warp special rule." Notice it says nothing about this detachment (or "this army" as It technically was released a month before 7th came out), as compared to our special rule. I don't see the special rule of freakish spectacle conflicting with itself, one detachment of demented horrors has an ability to lower leadership, another formation of freaks can lower your leadership too! It's like saying the archangel of pain and the armor of misery cannot stack as they are both giving -2 Ld to a unit for their test. (from their rules of course)
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valmir
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PostSubject: Re: Freakish Spectacle   Mon Nov 03 2014, 16:26

Yeah, good points. I think I've reversed my opinion on this. I still certainly think it's a greyish area, that isn't immediately clear, but on further consideration I think it has to stack.

Partly, I think this is because of the way it stacks. No single model is actually "gaining" the freakish spectacle "special rule" more than once. Because the rule applies to our detachment, not to the enemy model. The effects of the rule potentially stack, however.
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