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 Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?

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Tittliewinks22
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PostSubject: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 02:01

So someone just brought up on the Dark Eldar facebook page:

Page 89 of the main rulebook: "If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it."

Can you use this when deepstriking a vehicle to avoid a mishap?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 03:56

Deep striking units (which include vehicles) count as having moved - but a deep strike is not actually a move action, therefore the rule would not apply.

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Balisong
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 04:22

Thor, can you point me to something in the rules that clarifies that it does not count as a move action?

The only wording I can find in the section is that it says that the unit "counts as having moved at combat speed". Unless there's wording that I've missed, that says otherwise it seems that it is a movement action.
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 06:41

Page 162 under deepstrike Special rules it states, "In that turn's shooting phase, these units can fire (...) as normal, and count as having moved in the previous Movement phase."

This tells me that when deepstriking you will misshap if you scatter on to models because that happens before the shooting phase. The reason I think they added that rule is to force crew with heavy weapons to count as moving which will force them to snap fire their weapons.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 06:53

Yes, the 'counts as moving' rule exists. It only exists in the shooting phase, not in the movement phase. The Skimmer rule does not apply to movement in the shooting phase, only in the movement phase.

In the movement phase it scatters - it never moves at any point nor does it count as having moved in any way I can see.

Can you show me anywhere where there is wording saying that a deepstriking model is taking a move action in the movement phase? I think you need to do that to show this can work.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 09:44

This is what I posted on the facebook page. Your guys thoughts? I think this would work. Deployment takes place before the first turn. (pg132 BRB) Deployment would be into reserves or into the players deployment zone. On pg. 135 "When Reserves arrive pick one of your arriving units and deploy, moving it onto the table as described below." I would think that moving on to the table and the fact that it counts as moving at combat speed it qualifies as movement.
From a rules theory angle I think that Neil Gilstrap of the 11th Company Podcast explained it best.(Forgive me if I get this wrong). The hierarchy of rules would be: General Rules: Prohibits or grant permission: Universal Special Rules: Prohibits or grants permission & overrides GR Unit Type Rules: Prohibits or grants permission & overrides USR Specific Model Rules:Prohibits or grant permission and overrides UTR Skimmers rules would fall under Unit type rules and overrule the Deep Strike mishap USR. From a fluffy pint of view skimmers are floaty. Since they float the can "never" land on a model. This being said I would discuss this with my opponent and come to an interpretation pregame.(unless its my brother and I spring it on him 2nd turn.)
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 13:47

@Balisong wrote:
Thor, can you point me to something in the rules that clarifies that it does not count as a move action?

The only wording I can find in the section is that it says that the unit "counts as having moved at combat speed". Unless there's wording that I've missed, that says otherwise it seems that it is a movement action.
You should re-read it from the top. It is mentioned that deep striking units are deployed. Thus aren't moving during the movement phase.

For shooting purposes they count as moved, that is not the same as saying: "they are moving in the movement phase".
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 17:10

@Andrysiak wrote:
On pg. 135 "When Reserves arrive pick one of your arriving units and deploy, moving it onto the table as described below." I would think that moving on to the table and the fact that it counts as moving at combat speed it qualifies as movement.

This is incorrect. When the model comes into play from deepstrike it does not say anything about it counting as moving when it deepstrikes. It does not count as moving in the moving phase either. When it counts as moving is in the shooting phase so it affects how many guns the vehicle can fire at full BS unless its a walker type. It is very specific in this entry.

The key word/paragraph to look at is "In that turn's shooting phase..." on page 162. It clarifies this subject.

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Balisong
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 18:58

There has actually been a lot more discussion of this on the Dark Eldar facebook group, and both sides have presented equal arguments that deep strike is considered movement.

Where the current thread is netting out is that it needs a FAQ clarification as it's inconclusive and needs to be addressed by GW.

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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 19:18

I don't think they can clarify this when it is stated so clearly in plain english.  For a player to be able to do this in a game I would say what Thor has and ask for proof stating they can do so while in the movement phase.
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 19:36

There has been other evidence provided that clarifies that deploying onto the board from reserves is also classified as movement.

It completely contradicts itself. Hence the need for clarification.

I don't know if this link will work, but it's too much to cut and paste:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/4750737485/10152756643407486/?notif_t=group_comment_reply
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 22:03

To the people who don't read the skimmer rule as allowing you to move off of enemy models:

From what I understand your argument stems from the idea that the skimmer's rule only applies to the movement phase.
Where is that interpretation coming from? Skimmers have the ability to "move" during the shooting phase (turbo-boost). Would the rule not apply then as well?

I don't think the issue is as cut and dried as you say it is. If a vehicle "counts as having moved", and in the Reserves section says "moves onto the board" then I think the skimmer rule applies.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 22:12

The Only thing i can say to this is: DAMN YOU GW!!!

Why can't the rules be clear cut...
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Selvhan
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 23:09

That's an interesting debate. IMO I would say that the action of deepstriking replace the action of moving. If they had in mind that skimmers could use that rule when deepstriking, it would have been included in the rules.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Tue Oct 14 2014, 03:18

@Laughingcarp wrote:
From what I understand your argument stems from the idea that the skimmer's rule only applies to the movement phase.
Where is that interpretation coming from? Skimmers have the ability to "move" during the shooting phase (turbo-boost). Would the rule not apply then as well?
You are incorrect in the idea of what we are saying.
What we are saying is the rule only applies when the skimmer moves - and a skimmer that deepstrikes is counted as moving during its shooting phase, so therefore does not count as moving during the movement phase.

Movement and the act of moving are defined in the rulebook.
In the movement phase, a deepstriking skimmer will deep strike, and will scatter, but it does not move per the wording of the rules under the movement phase and therefore cannot take advantage of any special rules it has that are movement based. If it moves in the shooting phase then any benefits or restrictions to its movement would work normally.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Tue Oct 14 2014, 03:40

@Thor665 wrote:

You are incorrect in the idea of what we are saying.
What we are saying is the rule only applies when the skimmer moves - and a skimmer that deepstrikes is counted as moving during its shooting phase, so therefore does not count as moving during the movement phase.

Movement and the act of moving are defined in the rulebook.
In the movement phase, a deepstriking skimmer will deep strike, and will scatter, but it does not move per the wording of the rules under the movement phase and therefore cannot take advantage of any special rules it has that are movement based. If it moves in the shooting phase then any benefits or restrictions to its movement would work normally.

Prior to checking with this forum, and reviewing my BRB, I was under the impression that movement did occur within the Deep Strike phase. But after seeing Thor's responses and reviewing the BRB, He is correct, I cannot find anywhere where it states there is actual movement from deepstriking in...
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Tue Oct 14 2014, 03:45

The only argument I see is that it is precluded that they "may not move any further" which is another way of saying "may do no additional move" which one could argue suggests that DSing is, indeed, a move.

That said, if it was move - why would it need a rule saying, in the shooting phase, that they count as having moved? There would be no need for that rule at all if they had, in fact, already moved in the movement phase because...well, then it would just be obvious.

So, my conclusion is, they are not moving, and the one line is just there to prevent you trying to take a movement action with them since it is citing allowing disembarkation.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Tue Oct 14 2014, 03:50

Bell of Lost Souls picked up this topic too....maybe GW will take the hint and FAQ this....but I doubt it. Hopefully the community will come to a general consensus....

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/10/40k-rules-conundrum-new-dark-eldar-meta.html
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Tue Oct 14 2014, 05:30

@Thor665 wrote:
That said, if it was  move - why would it need a rule saying, in the shooting phase, that they count as having moved? There would be no need for that rule at all if they had, in fact, already moved in the movement phase because...well, then it would just be obvious.

I think it's just a clarification of what the type of vehicle speed the movement is considered. It's a clarification from 6th which had it at Cruising speed. Basically calling out that it has changed.

From a fluff standpoint, there's no way you can't consider any type of Deep Strike as not involving movement of some type.

It's all getting from point A to Point B and the fact that the BRB identifies deploying from reserves as a type of movement seems to support this.
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Tue Oct 14 2014, 06:13

Thanks for the clarification Thor665.

My friend pointed something out that kind of makes this whole debate immaterial one way or the other.

"...MOVE THE SKIMMER THE MINIMUM DISTANCE SO THAT NO MODELS ARE LEFT UNDERNEATH IT."

and then in the Deep Strike section

"...ON TOP OF OR WITHIN 1" OF AN ENEMY MODEL..."

Since the "minimum distance" in the skimmer rules does not specify 1" away, if you scatter onto enemy models you're still screwed and suffering a mishap. If the skimmer shuffle rule IS deemed to apply it'll only help if you scatter on top of friendly models. Not much consolation.


Nevermind. The drop pod inertial guidance rule ALSO doesn't say moves 1" away, so clearly there is some GW BS going on here.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Tue Oct 14 2014, 07:47

I may be wrong but ive looked in the rule book and found no other instances where our skimmer's would be forced to end their move over enemy/friendly model's, except by deep strike.
This would seem to indicate that maybe it does apply to deep strike.
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Tue Oct 14 2014, 08:08

The question becomes though does being "over" enemy models apply to the 1" buffer needed to avoid a mishap? if not you get moved off the model still end up in that buffer and mishap anyways. Even if that is tcase at least you don't mishap over friendly models that's still a plus and you could use WWP deep strikes to get close enough that when you would scatter your friendly model will be in the way to push you over 1" away.

That said aside from Liquidators do we really have anything that desperately needs to be that close to function on a deep strike? (Well heat lances but no troop that can go in a Raider can carry those) even blasters ideally would be further away to avoid reprisal bolters/assaults
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Tue Oct 14 2014, 08:15

Sadly I believe this wording hasn't changed since 6th. Don't even know how normal movement can get you in a situation where you are on top of another unit. Does that mean I can move a raider so that it's halfway over a blob, and as a result gets moved to the other side of the blob (moving an extra 6")? Sigh.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Tue Oct 14 2014, 09:15

Actually that seems like the biggest reason to say it does apply to deep strike. I mean if not deep strike then when does it apply?

If the answer were always then why would it say it at all as that rule already exists for everyone.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles deepstriking cannot mishap over models?   Tue Oct 14 2014, 10:51

I initially skimmed over this topic but one of my gaming buddies has just raised it and I've gone through it in more detail. I've got the following points to mention.

Deep strike rule states that deep striking units may not move any further. This implies to me that they have moved, otherwise the rule would have to say deep striking units may not move (it may well be a drafting error, but you can't assume that's the case).

Deep strike rules also state that deep striking units count as having moved in the previous movement phase (seems pretty clear to me). The only confusion i can think of here is that the model hasn't been placed on the table in one location and then moved to another, particularly if you roll a hit on the scatter dice. However the deep strike rules confirm that counts as the vehicle moving (it's effectively moving from above the table to on it).

The key part of the debate though to my mind is the part about being forced to end its movement over friendly or enemy models - I can't think of any other situation where a skimmer can be 'forced' to end its movement over another model (flyers yes, skimmers no), and therefore I'm leaning towards the conclusion that if a skimmer deep strikes and scatters over another unit, it is moved.

Just as a final point though - I would also argue that you couldn't place the skimmer initially over other models (not sure if this is allowed in the deep strike rule text anyway) but if you did that you wouldn't have been forced to end your move there, that would have been voluntary and therfore you'd mishap.

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