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 Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Sat Oct 11 2014, 23:52

I know Archon's seem pretty average as HQ selections without any AP2, but I'm trying to find ways to justify playing one.

My two questions to you are:

Does Soul trap stack multiple times against a 1 wound model - IE if I'm in a challenge against a squad leader and I deal 3 wounds at AP3, am I now strength 4 or 6?

Does the Djin blade confer 3 total extra attacks as long as you have another ccw or pistol?

I could see a cheap build going something like Archon w/ Soultrap and Djin Blade, maybe haywire nades and clone field if you're a little paranoid, that just walks around finding squad leaders, then promptly becomes huge with sheer number of wounds applied. It'd be really fun versus Chaos with their rule that they have to accept all the time.

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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Sun Oct 12 2014, 00:05

Soul trap - specifies unsaved wounds caused to characters. As excess wounds from challenges are now applied to the other models from the squad, those excess wounds caused once the character is dead aren't applied to the character, but the other models instead. Or in other words, if you kill a 1 wound model in a challenge by causing three wounds, the first kills the squad leader, and gives you +1 strength. The other 2 kill two other models that aren't characters, so can't give him a strength bonus.

Djinn blade isn't two-handed, so confers +2 attacks (if you use it instead of an alternative combat weapon) and you then get an extra one if you're also carrying a pistol or ccw.

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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Sun Oct 12 2014, 00:09

Not really any point in the djinn blade. Agonisers are cheaper and pretty much always better. Also they aren't going to kill you.

As for soul trap, I really want to take it still but I can't help but think everyone is going to just refuse the challenge. I guess it could be worth the low points cost to force a character out of a fight.

Definitely need shadow field to survive.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Sun Oct 12 2014, 01:24

@Anggul wrote:
As for soul trap, I really want to take it still but I can't help but think everyone is going to just refuse the challenge. I guess it could be worth the low points cost to force a character out of a fight.
I think it depends, but it certainly doesn't hurt if your Archon can be a bully about it - for a minor point cost you can issue a challenge that they run away from, removing attacks from the combat, which is a win all its own. Just pick your challenges wisely, but going and picking on a Tac squad with a Sarge with fist or power weapon who otherwise would want to swing an dnow has to either hand you +1 Str or wuss out of the assault and allow his squad to be mulched without doing much damage? Strikes me as a win/win really.

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Sun Oct 12 2014, 02:42

I know shadow fields and agonisers are common and all, but I'm shying away from them with this build on purpose.

As Thor mentions, as long as we challenge, we always come out on top in this situation. You shouldn't be steering this guy towards 2+ or t5 enemies.

Soultrap and/or furious charge benefit the Djin blade Archon far more than the Agoniser Archon. All the Agoniser gains is a reroll to wound 4+ at S5. At this point, the Djin is 3s to hit and 3s to wound. If you gain even more strength, it scales even further in the Djin Blade's favour.

Its 8 attacks Twisted Evil on Djin vs 6 Evil or Very Mad on Agoniser for only 5 points more. Most armies would kill for that. Quantity over quality imo; just avoid carnifexes and plague marines. Shoot them with poison, yo. And yeah, Djin blade can hurt us, but as long as we're doing this on a budget, without a shadow field, do we really care if Djin blade takes 1 wound off of us?

This guy is not your warlord, or the 1v1 specialist we used to have in 5th. This guy is a cheap trolling HQ choice with the potential to get out of hand; either getting stronger with soultrap and PfP or denying a squads special combat weaponry. Both ways, he will mulch MEQ quicker than any other option in our HQ for his price imo.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Sun Oct 12 2014, 03:48

@hydranixx wrote:
Soultrap and/or furious charge benefit the Djin blade Archon far more than the Agoniser Archon. All the Agoniser gains is a reroll to wound 4+ at S5. At this point, the Djin is 3s to hit and 3s to wound. If you gain even more strength, it scales even further in the Djin Blade's favour.
Careful there, big guy, respect the Aggie.

Re-read the poison rules.

At Str 5 vs. T 4 with an Aggie, what you're actually doing is rolling 3+ to wound, and re-rolling all failed wounds.
Stick that in your pipe, Djin Blade.

8 attacks on Djin vs. 6 on the Aggie, but the Aggie starts at the ability wound on a 4+, and by the time the Djin Blade is doing better the Aggie is re-rolling to wound. Doing the math, generally speaking until you hit Str+2 vs. your opponent's toughness - the Aggie will perform better despite less attacks.

And is cheaper.
And won't hurt you.
And that doesn't run the risk of being capable of causing you instant death. (which, generally speaking, by the time it outperforms the Aggie, this is the case for the Djin Blade)

I don't think the Djin blade is bad, per se, but I don't really see a reason to take it over the Agoniser. It appears to be an inferior weapon pretty much across the board especially in the context of running a Soul Trap.

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Sun Oct 12 2014, 04:03

Lol, how did I miss something so obvious?

Well I stand corrected, I guess I was desperate to find a way for Djin blade, or anything that isn't an agoniser, to be valid. I am back to the drawing boards though XD

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Sun Oct 12 2014, 04:04

I liked power lances and venom blades better than agonisers when we could take them and when aggies weren't poisoned.

Making the aggie poisoned was actually kind of a big deal.

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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Sun Oct 12 2014, 04:37

@hydranixx wrote:
Lol, how did I miss something so obvious?
Well I stand corrected, I guess I was desperate to find a way for Djin blade, or anything that isn't an agoniser, to be valid. I am back to the drawing boards though XD
WP

Oh, just wait for Episode 3 of Splintermind-I make a total ass out of myself for missing something even more obvious Razz

Seriously, the Agonizer is back in a big way for the Archon with a Soul Trap now that it has the Poison special rule. Twisted Evil

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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Sun Oct 12 2014, 11:58

Yup, the djinn blade is easily the worst relic weapon in the game, it's almost completely inferior to a piece of basic gear. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Sun Oct 12 2014, 18:41

@Evil Space Elves wrote:


Seriously, the Agonizer is back in a big way for the Archon with a Soul Trap now that it has the Poison special rule. Twisted Evil

I think the rounds with furious charge helps as well.
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Starkadder
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 12:41

Now speaking of rerolling with poison... Scissorhand on an abberation anyone? Lovely double chance to rend (and means he can pop a landraider...)
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 13:24

@Thor665 wrote:
And that doesn't run the risk of being capable of causing you instant death. (which, generally speaking, by the time it outperforms the Aggie, this is the case for the Djin Blade)

The Djin Blade doesn't do that any more, either.
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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 13:56

@Barking Agatha wrote:
@Thor665 wrote:
And that doesn't run the risk of being capable of causing you instant death. (which, generally speaking, by the time it outperforms the Aggie, this is the case for the Djin Blade)

The Djin Blade doesn't do that any more, either.

It automatically shuts down your shadow field though, which is pretty much the same as killing you.

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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 15:41

@Starkadder wrote:
Now speaking of rerolling with poison... Scissorhand on an abberation anyone? Lovely double chance to rend (and means he can pop a landraider...)
Sadly Poison only works on T-based models (so no tanks)

And again, for he Aberration the Agoniser is the best choice as they have S5 basic. And AP3 is more useful than Rending, in my book.

Second that Djin Blades is worst Artefact. It just doesn't make sense at that price, it should bring more that 2 attacks and the chance to take off your own wounds. d6 Extra attacks might be useful.
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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 15:56

+1S and/or Rending would be nice too.

I'm not sure on buying any weapon upgrades for an Aberration. Feels like we're paying for a flesh gauntlet and not using it. I guess it gives versatility, but that versatility is usually minimal and highly situational.

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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 16:05

Well clearly I didn't mean benefiting from the poison against a tank. Rending does mean he can pop a landraider though... And in combat rending is pretty good with your rerolls.

Scissorhand is 15pts cheaper than an agoniser and gives him more versatility.
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 16:18

@Starkadder wrote:
Well clearly I didn't mean benefiting from the poison against a tank. Rending does mean he can pop a landraider though... And in combat rending is pretty good with your rerolls.

Scissorhand is 15pts cheaper than an agoniser and gives him more versatility.
For rending to trigger you still need on average 6 armour penetration rolls. Which can be done when the vehicle didn't move. Don't forget that you won't benefit from Rampage when charging a vehicle.
So on any vehicle that did move it will be more of a gamble: 67% to get a rending hit, which would be at S10-13. So not even close to take out a Land Raider. Unless I missed something, is the scissorhand Armourbane?

I'm betting on HwB, Dark Matter or HL for that.
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 16:21

Does the djin blade still have a chance to wound you? if so then can you get the +1 str from soul trap from wounding yourself?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 16:22

@barenone wrote:
Does the djin blade still have a chance to wound you? if so then can you get the +1 str from soul trap from wounding yourself?

Nope. Only works for each unsaved Wound it inflicts in a challenge on an enemy character.

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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 17:09

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@barenone wrote:
Does the djin blade still have a chance to wound you? if so then can you get the +1 str from soul trap from wounding yourself?

Nope. Only works for each unsaved Wound it inflicts in a challenge on an enemy character.
LOLz, the idea is sweat. The Djin is actually treating you as an enemy!
It would almost make the Djin Blade worth it.

Sadly the wording of the Shadow-Field wouldn't allow for this combo. I so hope that they Errata this out of the shadow field. And hopefully rectify that dreadful Djin Blade. Is it so unthinkable that Dark Eldar might get a useful Artefact weapon? Something AP2, striking on Init or a weapon that reduces the opponents power to fight back.

I used to try to find ways to make the Electrocorrosive Whip work. Now it got worse with the Concussive special rule and it can only be taken by Acothist. In what world does Poison 5+ and concussive an AP3 weapon a good option? Ok, if you would have a mean to obtain high strength, that would mitigate the Poison 5+.

So it looks like the Agoniser is back to be the go-to weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 17:13

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@barenone wrote:
Does the djin blade still have a chance to wound you? if so then can you get the +1 str from soul trap from wounding yourself?

Nope. Only works for each unsaved Wound it inflicts in a challenge on an enemy character.

This makes me think that you need to resolve the wounds/saves for each hit separately in a duel when using the soul trap, as it could mean that your strength goes up between wounds.

For example:

You hit 4x:

Hit 1: S3 wounds on 4+ due to poison: 5 is rolled to wound. Save failed. +1 Str Gained

Hit 2: S4 wounds on 4+ due to Poison Str: 6 is rolled, Save failed. +1 Str.

Hit 3: S5 wounds on 3+ due to str: 2 is rolled, reroll allowed due to Poison rule = 6. Save Failed, character dies +1 Str.

Hit 4: vs squad: Wounds on 2+ due to S6 w reroll.

Is this correct? Or would you work them all out vs the S at the start of the combat?
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Starkadder
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 17:17

Furious charge can take you to strength 6 on the charge, 6+d3 takes you to a Max of 15.

The point remains: 15 points cheaper than an agoniser for a bit more flexibility... Grots will mulch tactical marines well enough without AP .
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 17:21

Plus against terminators you'll be rerolling 1s and 2s giving you more than a 1/6 chance of a rend.
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap stacks and Djin blade attacks?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 17:40

@ Balisong: it would be great if it were allowed in 7th. But as 7th is al about simplification and fast dice, I wouldn't do it.
On the other hand it only applies when you are fighting a character in a challenge...

@Starkadder: I had the feeling I was missing something. So without FC S12-14 on a rending armour pen and with FC S13-15. This still doesn't want me to give it a try, I like better odds, but it would be possible as an act of despair, of course.

I would never throw Grots into termies, unless it's 2-3 termies left. But than you would loose the Rampage bonus. Even 3 grots with Scissorhand Aberration would only mean about 1,85 dead termies and 77% chance on a rending death. If I'm not mistaken LC termies strike at same initiative, but sure TH & SS is more likely. But that renders to point of rending mute.
They would surely present the Termies a hard fight as they will have FnP vs TH attacks. So it might effectively tarpit them.
It might be worth it with FC, as you are practically wounding every hit you make. But in my opinion, the to hit part is where the problem also lies.

I rather plan for shooting TEQ with massed poison shooting and AP2 if they lack SS in the front of the unit.
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