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Blank05
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PostSubject: Stealth and Shrouded Stacking   Thu Oct 09 2014, 16:12

Hello fellow dark kin, I come to you with a rules question:

In the BRB it states that the special rules Stealth and Shrouded are cumulative up to a maximum of a 2+ cover save. Now, here's my question, do multiple stealths and shroudeds stack with themselves? For example, Nightshield, plus Night Fight. I am of the opinion that they don't, but the argument was made last night during a game. I'm hoping that they do, however, as that would be great!

Where my rules lawyers at?!
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth and Shrouded Stacking   Thu Oct 09 2014, 16:14

Probably in the rules forum, which is where this thread should be and is now being moved to - Count Adhemar

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barenone
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth and Shrouded Stacking   Thu Oct 09 2014, 16:18

i was wondering the same thing actually, with the new formation giving the 5+ to troops and 6+ to everyone else, would they get the stealth rule during night fighting as well? making them 4+ and 5+?
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Blank05
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth and Shrouded Stacking   Thu Oct 09 2014, 16:19

I could have sworn I put it in the right forum. Sorry, Count.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth and Shrouded Stacking   Thu Oct 09 2014, 16:20

I'd say you either have stealth or not, you can't have it twice. In the same way as coven units have FNP, they don't then get another FNP save on turn 2.

It can get to 2+ becuase your unit might already be in 5+ cover

barenone - yes.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth and Shrouded Stacking   Thu Oct 09 2014, 16:23

@Blank05 wrote:
Hello fellow dark kin, I come to you with a rules question:

In the BRB it states that the special rules Stealth and Shrouded are cumulative up to a maximum of a 2+ cover save. Now, here's my question, do multiple stealths and shroudeds stack with themselves? For example, Nightshield, plus Night Fight. I am of the opinion that they don't, but the argument was made last night during a game. I'm hoping that they do, however, as that would be great!

Where my rules lawyers at?!
What is the argument for how they would stack?

Stealth and Shrouded stack - that is clearly stated int heir rules.

Their rules also give you the modifier as long as at least one model in the unit has stealth.
That means you can have more than one model with stealth in a unit - and you would get the modifier.
That's a pretty clear statement of 'no' on stealth stacking with itself as there is no rule in Stealth for what happens beyond at least one model.

Shrouded is worded the same way.

The ruleset is permissive - meaning it tells you what you can do. That means if more than one model would give a stacking effect, they would need to say so in the rules for 'stealth/shrouded'.
They do not - ergo...

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Blank05
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth and Shrouded Stacking   Thu Oct 09 2014, 21:26

The argument was that it states that "Cover save bonuses from the Shrouded and Stealth special rules are cumulative." It doesn't say that the rules are only cumulative together. If the rule said something like, "Cover save bonuses from the Shrouded and Stealth special rules are cumulative with each other," then it would be restricted to just the stealth/shrouded combo. All the rules are saying, at this point, are that the Stealth special rule is cumulative and the Shrouded special rule is cumulative.
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skullmonkeyz
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth and Shrouded Stacking   Thu Oct 09 2014, 21:38

It isn't necessary to specifiy this though, as you can only ever benefit from a special rule once unless stated otherwise, which the entry for stealth explicitly does (and the one for shrouded as well for that matter)
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merse24
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth and Shrouded Stacking   Thu Oct 09 2014, 21:57

This has been argued over for a few years now and I honestly still don't know where I stand on the issue. With me and my gaming group, we have decided that Stealth does not stack with itself, neither does Shrouded, but they do stack with each other.

I can easily be persuaded that the opposite is true. This is a classic example of GW not being more clear.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth and Shrouded Stacking   Thu Oct 09 2014, 22:01

If Shrouded stacked with itself, any unit of 3 or more models with Shrouded would have a 2+ cover save in the open, as it confers to each member of the unit and (allegedly) stacks with itself. Same with Stealth except it needs 5 models to get to 2+. Anyone think that is the case?

Stealth stacks with Shrouded. Stealth does not stack with Stealth. Shrouded does not stack with Shrouded.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth and Shrouded Stacking   Thu Oct 09 2014, 22:03

Special rules also specifically note that they don't stack with themselves unless they say they do.

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merse24
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth and Shrouded Stacking   Thu Oct 09 2014, 22:07

That's exactly where the problem lies, both Stealth and Shrouded USRs state that "Cover save bonuses from the Shrouded and Stealth special rules are cumulative (to a maximum of a 2+ cover save)"
It appears that it does specifically say that they do stack
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth and Shrouded Stacking   Thu Oct 09 2014, 22:10

@merse24 wrote:
That's exactly where the problem lies, both Stealth and Shrouded USRs state that "Cover save bonuses from the Shrouded and Stealth special rules are cumulative (to a maximum of a 2+ cover save)"
It appears that it does specifically say that they do stack

With each other, not themselves.

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thesaltedwound
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth and Shrouded Stacking   Thu Oct 09 2014, 22:22

Yeah, "up to a maximum of 2+" (which seems to be the issue here) refers to the two of them stacking together for a 3-up on the cover save you already have. Not adding stealth to shrouded to stealth again until you reach 2+

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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth and Shrouded Stacking   Fri Oct 10 2014, 00:23

It goes back to the argument of "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover saves as being 1 point better than normal."
So it doesn't matter how many times you get stealth on the unit, or how many individual models in the unit have stealth.

If the unit has the Stealth USR somewhere in it, the unit gets +1 (and only +1 once ever) to its cover save.

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MurDok
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth and Shrouded Stacking   Fri Oct 10 2014, 06:37

*Face Palm* Nope not even gonna touch this.... laughingcarp has it right on the money.

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PostSubject: Re: Stealth and Shrouded Stacking   Fri Oct 10 2014, 08:13

"Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative."

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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth and Shrouded Stacking   Fri Oct 10 2014, 17:50

I have played 40k in multiple game stores and never ran into this issue. Stealth and Shrouded are only cumulative with each other, not themselves.

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PostSubject: Re: Stealth and Shrouded Stacking   Fri Oct 10 2014, 20:54

Nice spot Calyptra, page please?
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