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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Sun Oct 12 2014, 16:19

@Count Adhemar wrote:

Fearless confers to the whole unit so as long as one model in the unit is in Synapse range then they are all Fearless.


Nope.
Codex Tyranids:
Quote :

Friendly Codex: Tyranids models within this synapse range, including the Synapse Creatures themselves, have the Fearless special rule.

Also Fearless itself does not confer the USR Fearless to the unit. They just pass tests and cannot go to ground, but they dont have Fearless.
Same with Zealot which does not confer "Fearless".
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Sun Oct 12 2014, 17:50

So you're saying that they get the the effects of Fearless but are not Fearless? I doubt there's too many people out there who aren't just going to go right ahead and call them Fearless.

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Sun Oct 12 2014, 18:04

@Count Adhemar wrote:
So you're saying that they get the the effects of Fearless but are not Fearless? I doubt there's too many people out there who aren't just going to go right ahead and call them Fearless.
Wounds can not be assigned to fearless MODELS not units. The fearless rules says.. "units with one or more models with fearless automatically pass pinning, fear, regroup, and moral checks."
A leadership test is a characteristics test and so doesn't apply.
Fearless isn't conveyed to the unit, just the benefit of auto passing the tests listed above.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Sun Oct 12 2014, 18:31

@Count Adhemar wrote:
So you're saying that they get the the effects of Fearless but are not Fearless? I doubt there's too many people out there who aren't just going to go right ahead and call them Fearless.

It does hardly matter what people call it.
Important is what the rules call it.

There are models (and units) with the Fearless USR (Chaos Spawn for example) and there are units which pass certain tests automatically because one Model has the Fearless USR.
Technically speaking "Zealot" does exactly the same as "Fearless". Still it it the "Zealot" USR so it doesn't prevent effects that would get prevented by "Fearless".
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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Sun Oct 12 2014, 19:31

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
So you're saying that they get the the effects of Fearless but are not Fearless? I doubt there's too many people out there who aren't just going to go right ahead and call them Fearless.

It does hardly matter what people call it.
Important is what the rules call it.

There are models (and units) with the Fearless USR (Chaos Spawn for example) and there are units which pass certain tests automatically because one Model has the Fearless USR.
Technically speaking "Zealot" does exactly the same as "Fearless". Still it it the "Zealot" USR so it doesn't prevent effects that would get prevented by "Fearless".

Agreed. Also, if fearless usr is conferred to the entire unit if one model has it, why does it say "models with fearless" instead of "units with fearless" If it works that way EVERY unit with ANY fearless model would then be composed entirely of fearless models.
The fact that it specifies models not units supports the idea of a mixed unit, where some models are fearless and others just benefit without having the rule.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Sun Oct 12 2014, 21:57

I can see what you're saying but I feel it is pure semantics. The effects of Fearless are to automatically pass Pinning, Fear and Regroup tests and Morale checks yet somehow a model that specifically has the Fearless rule is immune to Soulfright but another model with the exact same benefits isn't?

On this basis, models with, for example, Preferred Enemy (Orks) would not confer those benefits to the whole unit (despite being a rule that says "one or more models...") because the other models in the unit do not have a Preferred Enemy and cannot therefore "re-roll failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy".

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Sun Oct 12 2014, 22:11

Quote :
A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy. This applies both to shooting and close combat attacks.

One Model with the prefered enemy rule lets his unit re-roll hit/wound of 1. Thats all it does.
It does not confer the USR: Prefered enemy to other models.

IF it did, you would create a gigantic condundrum.

Lets imagine a Chaos Lord in a group of cultists. Chaos Lord comes with Fearless. Now he confers Fearless to the cultists (which he does not but for the sake of the example).
For some reason you decide he should tank all the shots. crap happens and he dies.
What happens now?
The cultists are still fearless.
Why?
Because the Chaos Lord would confer Fearless to all cultists. At the moment he dies there would still be 10 cultists with fearless as they would permanently confer fearless to one another.

In reality the chaos Lord does not pass the Fearless USR to the culists, he just makes them auto-pass tests. And when he dies, Fearless is gone because he doesnt confer fearless to another model.

So in short. You confer the specific benefits, but not the USR itself.
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Mon Oct 13 2014, 03:45

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I can see what you're saying but I feel it is pure semantics.

Well, it is semantics. But the rules carefully create this semantic issue by distinguishing a) between models who have an USR and models who benefit from its effects, and also b) between what is a Morale, Pinning, Fear, Regroup or Leadership test.

Fearless models don't automatically pass Leadership tests. They just automatically pass every common application of Leadership tests. There are lots of related rules that do that too, plus something different. But unlike Fearless, they don't get to be immune to this specific leadership effect. Sucks to be them. Maybe the Zealot's hatred secretly stems from a deep dark fear, that is preyed upon by soulfright.

Did the designers just forget about these other rules, or forget to cross reference? Probably. We might even find out when the FAQ drops, and includes something like "all units that automatically pass morale are immune. Also, any models owned by a player named "Tom" are immune. So there."

In the meantime, I'm going to find some daemons to scare to death. Twisted Evil
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Mon Oct 13 2014, 09:21

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy. This applies both to shooting and close combat attacks.

One Model with the prefered enemy rule lets his unit re-roll hit/wound of 1. Thats all it does.
It does not confer the USR: Prefered enemy to other models.

That's not what it says though is it? It says "re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy". And the other models in the unit do not have a Preferred Enemy.

Quote :
IF it did, you would create a gigantic condundrum.

Lets imagine a Chaos Lord in a group of cultists. Chaos Lord comes with Fearless. Now he confers Fearless to the cultists (which he does not but for the sake of the example).
For some reason you decide he should tank all the shots. crap happens and he dies.
What happens now?
The cultists are still fearless.
Why?
Because the Chaos Lord would confer Fearless to all cultists. At the moment he dies there would still be 10 cultists with fearless as they would permanently confer fearless to one another.

After the Lord dies, does the unit contain "one or more models with the Fearless special rule"? No it does not. So what's the issue there? There is no question whatsoever of the Fearless effect being permanent. It is not and, until just now, I've never seen anyone say otherwise. But whilst the Lord is alive, the unit is Fearless.


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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Mon Oct 13 2014, 09:31

Quote :
After the Lord dies, does the unit contain "one or more models with the Fearless special rule"? No it does not. So what's the issue there? There is no question whatsoever of the Fearless effect being permanent. It is not and, until just now, I've never seen anyone say otherwise. But whilst the Lord is alive, the unit is Fearless.

It does. Because If the Lord confers the USR fearless to its unit, there is a plenty of models left who have fealress and confer fearless to other models.
They would not lose Fearless if one cultist with "Fearless" dies, so why should they when the Lord with fearless dies? They all have the USR at this point and confer it to each other.

If you follow my reading, that the USR is not spread, then you are right. Only one model (the Lord) had the Fearless USR, the rest did not.
Solfright can wound any model without the fearless USR. So the lord (which has the USR) is immune, the Cultists are not.
The unit is NOT fearless. The Lord is fearless and makes his unit auto pass tests.
Otherwise please point out where the rules say "The unit is considered fearless"

You contradict yourself.
Soulfright only mentions models with the Fearless USR.
You say yourself:
Quote :
After the Lord dies, does the unit contain "one or more models with the Fearless special rule"? No it does not.
So the cultists do not have the Fearless USR. Fully agreed.
And then you suddenly switch to:
Quote :
But whilst the Lord is alive, the unit is Fearless.

Because? You already stated that the Lord does not give the Fearless USR to the unit. Now you state the opposite.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Mon Oct 13 2014, 09:39

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
You sayy yourself:
Quote :
After the Lord dies, does the unit contain "one or more models with the Fearless special rule"? No it does not.
So the cultists do not have the Fearless USR. Fully agreed.
And then you suddenly switch to:
Quote :
But whilst the Lord is alive, the unit is Fearless.

Because? You already stated that the Lord does not give the Fearless USR to the unit. Now you state the opposite.

No, I'm not stating the opposite at all. The first situation is whilst the Lord is alive, the second is after he dies. As very clearly stated.

I can see what you're getting at but it's really the height of pedantry. So whilst you may be able to argue the RAW I would honestly have second thoughts about playing someone attempting this.

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Last edited by Count Adhemar on Mon Oct 13 2014, 12:48; edited 1 time in total
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Mon Oct 13 2014, 09:48

Why?
This is not even an unclear situation like many others.

Rule says: Does not work on models with fearless/ATSKNF.
There are some Models/units with Fearless/ATSKNF.
There are many models which dont have this USRs.
Sticking in a Models with Fearless gives the unit a clearly described advantage, but not the USR itself.

Soulfright doesnt care about the advantage but only checks if the USR is there or not.

Likewise Zealot. Zealot does not provide the Fearless USR to any model. The effects may be similar but again Soulfright only checks for fearless and not for similar effects.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Mon Oct 13 2014, 10:34

I think it's an interpretation of what fearless actually does. Let's consider what 'actually' happens in game terms. An independent character joins a unit, he has the fearless usr. the unit takes 30% casualties in the shooting phase and is called on to take a morale check. The independent character, being fearless, cajoles/threatens/bullies the unit to make sure no-one runs off (the fluffy interpretation of the rule's effect).

Soul fright however literally scares models to death, and no amount of bullying or threatening is going to stop that happening, therefore soulfright can affect models that do not have fearless.

I personally agree with the interpretation that it can affect units that automatically pass Morale, Fear, Regroup and pinning tests, because the soulfright characteristic test is none of these (it just happens to use the same characteristic).

Wouldn't Psychic shriek be the same principle? It's a Leadership Test on 3D6, not a morale, pinning, regroup or fear test...

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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Mon Oct 13 2014, 10:39

@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:

Eldar:
The avatar and all of the phoenix lords, wraith guard, wraith blades, wraith lords and wraith knights are immune because of fearless. Everything else is vulnerable.

That and all Eldar units within 12" of the avatar due to the rule Khaine Awakened.

Anyway this is very interesting topic!

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Mon Oct 13 2014, 10:59

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
You sayy yourself:
Quote :
After the Lord dies, does the unit contain "one or more models with the Fearless special rule"? No it does not.
So the cultists do not have the Fearless USR. Fully agreed.
And then you suddenly switch to:
Quote :
But whilst the Lord is alive, the unit is Fearless.

Because? You already stated that the Lord does not give the Fearless USR to the unit. Now you state the opposite.

No, I'm not stating the opposite at all. The first situation is whilst the Lord is alive, the second is after he dies. As very clearly stated.

I can see what you're getting at but it's really the height of pedantry. So whilst you may be able to argue the RAW I would honestly have second thoughts about playing someone attempting this.

.... I really don't get your hang up here. The writing of the soul fright rule is clear. Models not units. The fearless rule is very clear... RAW this is inarguably the correct interpretation. Unlike the stupid splinter racks rule a good argument can be made for rules as intended.
A squad of regular Joes is lead by a super human guy immune to fear. His courage can inspire them to greater heights of courage. It does NOT make them immune to a chemical weapon that causes fear so bad it makes the bad acid trip the Beatles were on when they wrote "yellow submarine" seem like a Disney movie.


Last edited by Bibitybopitybacon on Mon Oct 13 2014, 16:21; edited 1 time in total
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Mon Oct 13 2014, 11:14

My hang up is that two models who both have identical effects on them are treated differently because of semantics.

Nevertheless, I don't wish to insult anyone and apologise if any offence has been caused. I'll bow out of this one.

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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Mon Oct 13 2014, 11:18

@lelith wrote:
@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:

Eldar:
The avatar and all of the phoenix lords, wraith guard, wraith blades, wraith lords and wraith knights are immune because of fearless. Everything else is vulnerable.

That and all Eldar units within 12" of the avatar due to the rule Khaine Awakened.

Anyway this is very interesting topic!
Ty! Fixed it!
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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Mon Oct 13 2014, 11:20

I wouldn't say semantics, more the accurate effects of the rules in question. Because you don't often take Ld checks that aren't one of the common four sub-types, models with fearless and models that auto pass those four types of test are functionally the same. In this instance though, they aren't because the Ld characterstic test does not fall into one of those four sub-types.

I know this is going to come as a shock, but perhaps in this instance it's a case of GW actually knowing very specifically what the rules they've written do in the game? Maybe this is absolutely the intended effect of the rule, that a fearless dude can find the unit around him dying in droves (Armour of Misery anyone?) without them ever actually running away.

It's why i like topics like this, other people read things differently or in more detail and we can all discuss and investiagte and take our understanding of the army and the game further.

Incidentally I've asked the question of my gaming buddies and they agree that as a characteristic test on a per model effect, fearless only applies to the model with the fearless special rule (in particular this type of question had come up with a unit of Dark Angels joined by a fearless model)

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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Mon Oct 13 2014, 11:22

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
I know this is going to come as a shock, but perhaps in this instance it's a case of GW actually knowing very specifically what the rules they've written do in the game?

Let's not get carried away!

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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Mon Oct 13 2014, 11:27

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
I know this is going to come as a shock, but perhaps in this instance it's a case of GW actually knowing very specifically what the rules they've written do in the game?

Let's not get carried away!

sorry, couldn't resist! lol!

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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Mon Oct 13 2014, 11:42

To be honest, this is one of the main reasons I have a problem with this rule. I absolutely cannot believe that anyone at GW thought of it in the way that you guys have. Which doesn't really say much for them as rules writers...

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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Mon Oct 13 2014, 12:37

It seems to be a much more 50/50 issue than the splinter racks 'loophole'. Most important rule it if there's any debate surely!
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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Mon Oct 13 2014, 12:42

Just had a thought that actually might support them knowing what they were doing. Doesn't the text of the rule state that wounds can only be applied to models without fearless or ATSKNF, and any excess wounds are lost? I seem to remember reading that but haven't got my codex with me to check.

If so, that last part would seem to make it very clear that a unit with some fearless models in it can still be affected?

For example - A fearless model joins a unit of 5 non-fearless models. they get hit by a soulfright weapon and fail their leadership test by 6. Five wounds are applied to the five non-fearless models (they don't have the fearless usr, just benefit from its effects in certain situations) but as the only remaining model has the fearless usr the sixth wound is wasted.

Thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Mon Oct 13 2014, 12:44

The above could also apply to a SM IC who has joined a unit of IG vets. One of them has ATSKNF, but doesn't give it to the unit.
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PostSubject: Re: soul fright   Mon Oct 13 2014, 12:47

Yeah, I'm tending now to think that perhaps it is intended although you can never really tell with GW!

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