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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: Does this make sense?   Thu Oct 09 2014, 15:27

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

EVERY Codex got either a complete new unit as dedicated ground AA or an existing unit repurposed or upgradeable to mount AA. In ADDITION to the Aegis. Except for Sisters, Grey Knights and us.
And im sure the next (non rushed, with a bigger release window and more models) codices will all see dedicated ground AA and a LoW.

But would it be fitting for dark Eldar to have a ground based dedicated AA unit? I think not. We already have 2 fliers that we can take as AA units and if there are no enemy fliers, then we can uses them on ground targets.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Does this make sense?   Thu Oct 09 2014, 15:32

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

EVERY Codex got either a complete new unit as dedicated ground AA or an existing unit repurposed or upgradeable to mount AA. In ADDITION to the Aegis. Except for Sisters, Grey Knights and us.
And im sure the next (non rushed, with a bigger release window and more models) codices will all see dedicated ground AA and a LoW.

But would it be fitting for dark Eldar to have a ground based dedicated AA unit? I think not. We already have 2 fliers that we can take as AA units and if there are no enemy fliers, then we can uses them on ground targets.

Like everyone else?
Scourges would habe been great as additional AA. Ravages could have had their "Aerial Assault" repurposed to give Skyfire. Not that hard and would be "in line" with all the oder codices.
Lord of War, Ground AA and 2 Flyers are standard for EVERY codex since Dark Angels. And still DE are beneath this standard in 2 Aspects. That not even a powerlevel issue, just an issue that clearly shows a lack of "care".
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Does this make sense?   Thu Oct 09 2014, 16:04

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Scourges would habe been great as additional AA. Ravages could have had their "Aerial Assault" repurposed to give Skyfire. Not that hard and would be "in line" with all the oder codices.

I agree that these would both have been easy and reasonable changes and it's annoying that certain aspects of the game have been totally ignored in the new codex - AA being the one that annoys me the most.

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merse24
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PostSubject: Re: Does this make sense?   Thu Oct 09 2014, 16:51

To me it's pretty simple what GW is thinking.... revenue and profits, they are not seeking growth at the moment.

In my opinion, GW is in a large shift in thinking.  First, we need to understand where their main source of revenue comes from.... models.  Also, the bad thing for GW is that the product that they sale is not perishable, meaning that once a customer buys the model, they have it forever.  Knowing this, GW is forced to do certain things to keep selling models:

1. New designs for existing models
2. Completely new units
3. Modify rules for units

When GW decides to plan a codex update, you can be sure that they will have a good understanding of what models are selling and what models are not before they adjust any rules or models.  It is a very safe bet that if a model is selling very well, then they will either keep the rules the same, or nerf the unit.  If the sales are poor, they will give the unit a buff to encourage more sales.  In addition to this, they also have a good understanding of the revenue stream for the entire army.  I would not ever expect them to invest money into an army that is disproportional to the revenue they typically get in return.  For example: Dark Eldar comprises of 1% of the total revenue from all of the armies (numbers are for example only), and Space Marines comprise of 5% of the total revenue.  Why would GW ever decide to spend an equal amount of money on design for the two armies? They would result in lower profits for the DE release.  Any company will be setting a benchmark for what margin they are expecting, and that margin will be the same across all army releases.  They would not be able to hit that margin, if they spend more money in design than they expect to receive in sales.

As I mentioned above, GW is going through a large shift in thinking.  Prior to 7th edition, the above mentioned 3 ways of creating new revenue was the only way they ever utilized.  Now, we are seeing a new source of revenue....datasheets and Allies.  GW has now made it to where if you want to be competitive, you have to incorporate allies into your army, thus requiring you to buy more models.  Since 7th edition was released, we are seeing a VERY common theme among the codex releases.  And also the speed in which they are being released is extremely uncommon.  Why would they do this?  It is because they have had a shift in their sales strategy.  Once all of the codices have been updated to the 7th edition, you can bet that there will be a steady stream of dataslates and random new models to keep us buying more.

Also, we need to all understand that the people that run GW are business men/women, NOT gamers.  They have a very good understanding of business and sales, but rely on poorly paid (I'm assuming) employees to do the design of the models and rules.  Did you see the previous CEO?  Do you actually think that he played 40k?  I think not.

The main issue that I currently see with GW is that they are not focused on growth.  They are not trying at all to bring in new players.  Until they do this, I think we will continue to see them scramble to keep up revenue with a shrinking customer base.
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wanderingblade
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PostSubject: Re: Does this make sense?   Thu Oct 09 2014, 19:46

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

EVERY Codex got either a complete new unit as dedicated ground AA or an existing unit repurposed or upgradeable to mount AA. In ADDITION to the Aegis. Except for Sisters, Grey Knights and us.
And im sure the next (non rushed, with a bigger release window and more models) codices will all see dedicated ground AA and a LoW.

But would it be fitting for dark Eldar to have a ground based dedicated AA unit? I think not. We already have 2 fliers that we can take as AA units and if there are no enemy fliers, then we can uses them on ground targets.

Why wouldn't it be fitting? I mean, lots of other armies have fliers, but still have ground based AA units, I don't think that should be reason enough alone.
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Dogmar
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PostSubject: Re: Does this make sense?   Thu Oct 09 2014, 20:17

@merse24 wrote:
GW has now made it to where if you want to be competitive, you have to incorporate allies into your army, thus requiring you to buy more models. Since 7th edition was released, we are seeing a VERY common theme among the codex releases

I would argue, that this presumes GW rules designers actually know what is competetive and playtest their rules to achieve that business aim set out for them.

To me though, I think they're just rushing stuff out without proper playtesting if they playtest at all. The deadline and the sales being more important than rules balance or flavor which they admit to not really care about.

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PostSubject: Re: Does this make sense?   Thu Oct 09 2014, 21:12

I wonder how many people follow this same road. This is a tale about me the consumer:

Now I have multiple hobbies and a limited income. And in that I mean most people have a limited income. Yeah, you have disposable income, but generally it's still limited. In other words, you won't see me buying that 1-click army for $11,000. And as such my disposable income get split between hobbies, because I enjoy them all.

At the 3rd-4th quarter of last year GW saw quite a bit of my disposable income, as I was having a blast with an escalation league. That fun and excitement disappeared as more eldar armies and tau armies started showing up, but I had a good group of guys I played with so I still continued to play the game.

My army was basically "complete", before 7th came out, and I bought a pack of harlequins before release just because I didn't own the models. When 7th came out I was in the process of moving, so I said, "Eh, I don't need the rulebook now. I'll buy it when I start going to my new FLGS." I play one game of 7th edition before I move.

Three weeks after I moved I still didn't own a 7th edition rule book. I had been reading articles online on how Eldar, Tau, and now Knights were still doing their thing. I go my local shop to get the rule book and what other do I see than a majority of those armies on the table. I head home, and I tell myself, "Ah, I'll just pick up the rule book when we get our new codex in October."

I hear the voidraven is coming out, and I get excited. Bam. $80 on hold for that model alone. Plus money for the codex and rule book. I'm psyched! The codex drops. I buy the digital copy. The cheapest version. Why? It's more convenient, and it's safer. I love the digital world. When a 3 year old destroys your $60 codex because you forgot to put it out of reach you learn to appreciate digital.

I pour over the codex. I read the rules for the army and the rules for the voidraven. I don't bother buying the rule book or the voidraven. I amost regret buying the codex. The quality level of fun is still where I left it at the beginning of the year. Nothing had been fixed in seven months. I'm not actively badmouthing or even boycotting GW. I'm not taking any sort of stand against them. I just simply get more value for my dollars elsewhere. Maybe I've simply outgrown the game, but I don't think that's it. I still watch for rumors and follow releases. There's just nothing worth purchasing to me until the game is fixed.

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Ichi Aenis
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PostSubject: Re: Does this make sense?   Thu Oct 09 2014, 22:34

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
I wonder how many people follow this same road. This is a tale about me the consumer:

Now I have multiple hobbies and a limited income. And in that I mean most people have a limited income. Yeah, you have disposable income, but generally it's still limited. In other words, you won't see me buying that 1-click army for $11,000. And as such my disposable income get split between hobbies, because I enjoy them all.

At the 3rd-4th quarter of last year GW saw quite a bit of my disposable income, as I was having a blast with an escalation league. That fun and excitement disappeared as more eldar armies and tau armies started showing up, but I had a good group of guys I played with so I still continued to play the game.

My army was basically "complete", before 7th came out, and I bought a pack of harlequins before release just because I didn't own the models. When 7th came out I was in the process of moving, so I said, "Eh, I don't need the rulebook now. I'll buy it when I start going to my new FLGS." I play one game of 7th edition before I move.

Three weeks after I moved I still didn't own a 7th edition rule book. I had been reading articles online on how Eldar, Tau, and now Knights were still doing their thing. I go my local shop to get the rule book and what other do I see than a majority of those armies on the table. I head home, and I tell myself, "Ah, I'll just pick up the rule book when we get our new codex in October."

I hear the voidraven is coming out, and I get excited. Bam. $80 on hold for that model alone. Plus money for the codex and rule book. I'm psyched! The codex drops. I buy the digital copy. The cheapest version. Why? It's more convenient, and it's safer. I love the digital world. When a 3 year old destroys your $60 codex because you forgot to put it out of reach you learn to appreciate digital.

I pour over the codex. I read the rules for the army and the rules for the voidraven. I don't bother buying the rule book or the voidraven. I amost regret buying the codex. The quality level of fun is still where I left it at the beginning of the year. Nothing had been fixed in seven months. I'm not actively badmouthing or even boycotting GW. I'm not taking any sort of stand against them. I just simply get more value for my dollars elsewhere. Maybe I've simply outgrown the game, but I don't think that's it. I still watch for rumors and follow releases. There's just nothing worth purchasing to me until the game is fixed.

That's not far off where I'm at...I mean, after returning to 40k after *mumblecough* years & adapting I was loving it. My best buddy plays Tau & seldom beat me (especially since the advent of the objective markers) so riding on victories I was feeling pretty good.

I have the models I needed for my 1500pt force plus a few extras for variety so I have room for expansion (never owned wytches, a haemy/archon/succubi, Cronos, Beasties or Grots) & because I didn't really experiment too much with my build because it worked in my very tiny gaming circle I'm not mad about expanding out to taste a few of the other dishes available from the buffet that is the Dark Eldar army.

That being said, as numerous people have pointed out, things "ain't right" so I feel trepidation investing further when GW arbitrarily switch things up...just because.
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PostSubject: Re: Does this make sense?   Thu Oct 09 2014, 22:42

Expletive Deleted and all I'm in a similar place.  I'll be buying the coven supplement and I'll be crossing my fingers that it gets me excited about 40k again.  If it does I'll buy the 7th edition rulebook.  If not I'll probably bid GW a fond farewell.  
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Ichi Aenis
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PostSubject: Re: Does this make sense?   Thu Oct 09 2014, 22:44

Consequently we've been playing more Firestorm: Armada, Malifaux & have started doing Mutant Chronicles: Warzone.

I'll "weather the storm" & see how bad the changes make my game from my experience...if the changes are minimal then all's good until the next evo.

One thing I absolutely must agree on, Ravagers are ruined! Nobody is going to field a Ravager that has AV11 (small arms fire can take that down with flukey rolls & no amount of night shields is going to save it...so you're down to jinking & then you're just never going to hit)...utterly pointless!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Does this make sense?   Thu Oct 09 2014, 23:06

Time and money, it's all about that for me at this point in my life. I have a house, wife, kids in the future, and multiple hobbies that I have already invested in. When I look at all the major game systems I'm active in: 40K, WHFB, Warmahordes, X-Wing, I know that when Tuesday game nights come in, I can only play one of those game systems. Which one is it going to be? That's 100% dependent on the mood that I'm in.

It just sucks that out of all of those games, 40K is always dead last for me. Not because I don't like the setting, the fluff, the lore or the look of the army (they would rank highest for me), but because the rules are continuously subpar and underwhelming, and I don't feel like playing the same people repeatedly. I choose to use that time and money elsewhere, that is a conscious decision all of us gamers use.

I'm excited to get games in with the book, but at the same time I know that level of excitement could have been much higher if the book itself was better. I like the Voidraven model, but at this point I would rather make my own than buy a subpar unit for testing purposes. Why bother when you can proxy the Razorwing and just use one of your Raider shockprows as the Void Mine?

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PostSubject: Re: Does this make sense?   Fri Oct 10 2014, 00:33

Yeah, I'm not leaving the hobby. Neither am I encouraging it.

I just happened to notice, I've given GW less money this year than I would have given them in a month last year. And while I know the company doesn't soley survive on my purchases I was wondering if anyone else had come to a similar realization. I do know people who actually just adore the models, and buy whatever comes out. But I'd like to think I'm the average WH consumer, where GW is competing against my dollars for not just other miniature wargames, but against movies, video games, music etc. etc. And that, "Well this is a model company" attitude is going to keep hurting them.

I play a lot of video games, and if I had to relate them to a company I'd say Capcom. They established themselves very well in the 80s. Established vastly popular franchises. And they road that great wave until now. While the industry grew much larger they didn't grow with it, relying on the popularity of their games to generate revenue. When sales started faltering, their initial reaction wasn't to increase the quality of their games, it was to offer $15 DLC so you can dress your street fighter character's up in different clothing. Worked at first, and now most people have seen through that ruse and the company is now down 45% in profit and after 32 years of vetoing it company shareholders have now voted to allow the company to be bought out.

So... I hope this great plan of theirs is actually great.

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PostSubject: Re: Does this make sense?   Mon Oct 13 2014, 02:48

Yup. Time and money.

I've actually spent more on rulebooks this year then miniatures. 40k 7ed and the new dex, vs 1 venom. Oh and some Wracks my wife bought me ... I guess that counts. I'm a bit over catching up on rules, and not prepared to fork out the same price as the main book again for the coven supplement, even though it does have all the best ways to run coven troops in there.

I believe Tom Kirby is on the record as saying that GW is not pursuing a strategy of corporate growth at the moment, but rather pursuing a cost-cutting strategy to increase their profit margins. I have no issue per se with a company acting to increase its profits, but nor do I feel the need to rapturously throw them my hard-earned dosh at any price.

Unfortunately for us, our codex has fallen in a cost-cutting phase. Thus we've received a book that is actually not required to draw new players to the army; it is only required to service existing players, and meet what I assume is a corporate goal for a unified up-to-date system. So from that point of view there is no surprise that the book is a little underwhelming. (Pity I didn't think of this before I bought the book...)

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
I play a lot of video games, and if I had to relate them to a company I'd say Capcom.

I'm looking forward to playing Warhammer 40,000: 7th Edition: Championship Edition: Hyperfighting: Dark Millenium: Chapter Approved: Dammit just buy more Space Marines Edition. Very Happy
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