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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Wed Oct 08 2014, 16:45

@Mushkilla wrote:
@HERO wrote:
Sure man, keep your head high, be that proud and arrogant Archon.  But know that deep down inside, your army will be second-string to Eldar as WWP-bitch for the duration of this codex. You should know that I'm a living salt-mine right now since all these competitive players know me to be die-hard DE.

I don't think such a foreboding retort is necessary.

I honestly think you would be less disheartened if you actually considered coven units (according to your blog, your not a fan). I can understand thinking the book is terrible when you won't consider two of the more solid units in the book (grots and talos). Personally I think Talos have great synergy with our army. They mean we can start something on the board turn 1 which isn't made out of wet paper, whilst the rest of the army is in reserve. But that's just me. Smile

You and I both know I hate Haemonculi units, but I must be a fool to ignore the buffs that they received. I know that they got improved, and that the first supplement is geared for them. It just seems like a cash grab to me, when suddenly the underutilized and lackluster units got improved while other options got seemingly worse, and that's before the Day1 DLC supporting said units.

I already called out that I think DS Grotesques are downright gross (pun intended) and they'll see competitive play with such stats. That still doesn't change my perception of the codex as a whole, or where we place competitively.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Wed Oct 08 2014, 16:54

@HERO wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Eldar need a few changes to bring them back in line with the other codexes. I think Tau are pretty much okay to be honest. They have taken a pretty severe nerf with the changes to battle brothers and the removal of the ability to stick a buff commander with a Riptide.

Yeah, I would agree with that.  Just take out the shooting profile for Serpent Shield entirely and the entire army dynamic changes.

Don't even need to take it out. Just make it one use only and maybe reduce it to D3+1 shots. Serpents would still be tough but they would lack the overwhelming firepower that they currently have. I'd also be tempted to get rid of laser lock from scatter lasers.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Wed Oct 08 2014, 17:00

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@HERO wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Eldar need a few changes to bring them back in line with the other codexes. I think Tau are pretty much okay to be honest. They have taken a pretty severe nerf with the changes to battle brothers and the removal of the ability to stick a buff commander with a Riptide.

Yeah, I would agree with that.  Just take out the shooting profile for Serpent Shield entirely and the entire army dynamic changes.

Don't even need to take it out. Just make it one use only and maybe reduce it to D3+1 shots. Serpents would still be tough but they would lack the overwhelming firepower that they currently have. I'd also be tempted to get rid of laser lock from scatter lasers.

But why have something that hey never had to begin with? The WS' Energy Shield was always a defensive boon to buying the vehicle. The weapon option is completely unneeded.

Anyways, I don't want to deviate too much from the DE discussion to talk about Eldar BS. My question would be how to deal with Mechdar now that we've lost Flickerfields to protect us. Venomspam literally gets eaten by WS through sheer number of glancepens inflicted, and our reply lances have barely any effect. Even before, Mechdar was one of the hardest MU for us, right now I think it's even worse.

Scourges with Haywires looks to be a nice replacement for the Ravager, or rather, it can supplement Ravager shooting, but they're also vulnerable to the high-volume shots that Mechdar can put out they do not Ignore Cover like they do.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Wed Oct 08 2014, 17:02

There's a list in the army list section using three units of scourges with heat lances accompanied by wwp archons, and four ravagers. seems to me like this would be pretty decent against any mech type list.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Wed Oct 08 2014, 17:05

Deep striking reavers/scourges with heatlances? It might intimidate the opponent into not firing their shield off.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Wed Oct 08 2014, 17:12

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Deep striking reavers/scourges with heatlances? It might intimidate the opponent into not firing their shield off.

Yep, that's a good one.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Wed Oct 08 2014, 17:38

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Deep striking reavers/scourges with heatlances? It might intimidate the opponent into not firing their shield off.

Why?
You have to get so close to actually have a chance to penetrate that you probably could hit the rear anyways (and there is no shield). And even IF you dont manage to get close enough the Serpent is AntiGrav too and can also jink on a 3+.
The snapshots are not even that much of an issue as everything is twin linked anyways.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Wed Oct 08 2014, 17:46

The thing about Mechdar is that they have the same chance to pen your vehicles but have a higher volume of shots, more consistent shooting and can ignore cover. Plus, they can reserve manipulation better thanks to the Autarch and Farseers' with Divination.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Wed Oct 08 2014, 18:35

Put only cronoses' with spirit probes on the field and hold the rest of your army in reserve? Throw in two haemonculi with wwp and grots in their backfield too. S5-6 hitting on rear armor but it takes a while to set up. These are just ideas though using only units in our book. Would you rather I say, "Take your own wave serpents."?

Edit: There's probably some magic number of cronos to take. If 7 serpent shield shots hit and wound a cronos with spirit probe it should only do around one wound. And if you don't give them anything else to shoot at they can choose to either waste their shield trying to take them out, or prepare for the coming onslaught.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Wed Oct 08 2014, 19:30

Why would you waste the shield on chronoi and grots?
The whole shuriken storm is with rending deals with them perfectly fine. Not to mention Warpspiders and Fire Dragons/Wraithguard.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Wed Oct 08 2014, 19:41

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Why would you waste the shield on chronoi and grots?
The whole shuriken storm is with rending deals with them perfectly fine. Not to mention Warpspiders and Fire Dragons/Wraithguard.

Aren't shuriken weapons short range? They need +5 to wound, and even if they rend you get a 4+ save. The idea is to make sure you don't get tabled before your actual army comes in. because if you start the army on the table you're losing a skimmer for each wave serpent they brought.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Wed Oct 08 2014, 19:43

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Why would you waste the shield on chronoi and grots?
The whole shuriken storm is with rending deals with them perfectly fine. Not to mention Warpspiders and Fire Dragons/Wraithguard.

Aren't shuriken weapons short range? They need +5 to wound, and even if they rend you get a 4+ save. The idea is to make sure you don't get tabled before your actual army comes in. because if you
start the army on the table you're losing a skimmer for each wave serpent they brought.

Definitely not.  Shuriken Cannons are 24" range S6 with Bladestorm.

Edit: Scatter-lasers are 36"

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Wed Oct 08 2014, 19:51

@HERO wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Why would you waste the shield on chronoi and grots?
The whole shuriken storm is with rending deals with them perfectly fine. Not to mention Warpspiders and Fire Dragons/Wraithguard.

Aren't shuriken weapons short range? They need +5 to wound, and even if they rend you get a 4+ save. The idea is to make sure you don't get tabled before your actual army comes in. because if you
start the army on the table you're losing a skimmer for each wave serpent they brought.

Definitely not.  Shuriken Cannons are 36" range S6 with Bladestorm.

Thought they were 24" and the scatter laser was 36". I still think enough cronois could survive a turn 1 beating long enough to buy your army time. Anyone think of something better? I'd never run this because I don't want to tailor my list to beat mechdar, but wave serpents don't look very effective against the cronos.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Wed Oct 08 2014, 20:02

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
@HERO wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Why would you waste the shield on chronoi and grots?
The whole shuriken storm is with rending deals with them perfectly fine. Not to mention Warpspiders and Fire Dragons/Wraithguard.

Aren't shuriken weapons short range? They need +5 to wound, and even if they rend you get a 4+ save. The idea is to make sure you don't get tabled before your actual army comes in. because if you
start the army on the table you're losing a skimmer for each wave serpent they brought.

Definitely not.  Shuriken Cannons are 36" range S6 with Bladestorm.

Thought they were 24" and the scatter laser was 36". I still think enough cronois could survive a turn 1 beating long enough to buy your army time. Anyone think of something better? I'd never run this because I don't want to tailor my list to beat mechdar, but wave serpents don't look very effective against the cronos.

You're not tailoring your list to beat Mechdar though because they're the list to beat.

Sorry, I'm thinking effective range, being that they can reach you from 36" away. Coffee needed. Yes, Scatters are the 36" versions but they don't have Bladestorm, they have Laser-lock instead.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Wed Oct 08 2014, 20:08

Why would they need to be?
When you only start with cronos on the board, Eldar will get a free round of VP and position for your Deepstrikes. For the heatlances to work you have to DS in < 9" range. So any scatter will result in a S6 + D6 for armor pen or even worse a mishap.
Grots want to come close too so the can charge next turn. Poison is useless this turn and all Sperpents still have their shields up because you had no targets of value for them to fire.

Wave serpents may not be super effective against the cronos, but they dont have to be. Their troops are effective and the cronos has only a short range.
In a Sperpent spam list you will find 4 - 6 Serpents, a few min squads of dire avengers 1 - 2 min squads of fire dragons (all in serpents), 1 - 2 squads of warpspiders (reserve), 1 autarch without equipment and 1 - 2 Night spinners.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Wed Oct 08 2014, 20:14

Night Spinners are also very deadly because of their Barrage S8 shots. Now I fully expect to see the WS spam list to include some of our HQs for the WWP drop anywhere they want with Fire Dragons.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Wed Oct 08 2014, 20:19

Well my idea was that if you deploy your cronoi far enough back the only thing that will have range on them is the wave serpent, and 6 wave serpents will have a hard time removing a squad of three from the field. Once turn two hits you deepstrike haywire scourges blasterborn and ravagers into place and hopefully wreck a wave serpent or two. If you fit the grots in now the enemy has to make a serious decision what to deal with and how.

Again, just an idea. My answer is still: take a wave serpent.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Wed Oct 08 2014, 20:22

Tormentor helms still don't do anything right? The 5e codex had them fire off waves of pain at people (even though they had no rules effect), did they remove that in the 7e codex? Because it would just feel like a kick to the balls if they repeated the same fluff of tormentor helms stunning enemies for Incubi to charge in and slice up, yet STILL have them do nothing rules-wise.

It sounds so much like an assault grenade effect too, like "Those guys are in cover but the tormentor helm makes them dizzy so the incubi can charge them like they had assault grenades" would've made a lot of sense.

I'm enthused at 6 FA slots detachment 'cause reavers and scourges are cool tho', and looking forward to what Mushkilla will do with 6 dozen reavers
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Wed Oct 08 2014, 22:28

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Well my idea was that if you deploy your cronoi far enough back the only thing that will have range on them is the wave serpent, and 6 wave serpents will have a hard time removing a squad of three from the field. Once turn two hits you deepstrike haywire scourges blasterborn and ravagers into place and hopefully wreck a wave serpent or two. If you fit the grots in now the enemy has to make a serious decision what to deal with and how.

Again, just an idea. My answer is still: take a wave serpent.

Ok. The croni are far back. Why do I want to shoot them? they are not going to be a threat for the entire game. They crawl 6" + D6" over the borad. Minimum distance is 24", you are looking for what? 36"? 200 Points I dont need to take care off becuase the wont ever reach a unit and wont ever support the deepstriking DE force.
Haywire, Ravagers and Blasterborn do not ignore cover. The Eldar had basically a free tunr to get into position and cover their rears while also taking objectives.
The serpent is durable enough to gamble a bit with the blasterborn and the ravager (you need 4 to glance) while jinking the scourges.
Even if you kill 2 of 6, you still gonna lose 4 vehicles to serpents and Warpspiders, Dire Aengers, Drakes and Nightspinners didnt even shoot yet.
The dangerous thing about the nightspinner is not his Barrage, but his torrent (which ignores cover)

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Wed Oct 08 2014, 23:26

The way I see it, aside from being outgunned and outclassed by the Eldar, the major problem is not getting the first shots. Whenever I play against wave serpents anytime my boats are targeted by one, it's gone. So generally if they go first, unless I pull off some spectacular deployment, it's an auto-lose. The only reason the Cronos is there, it to make sure you don't lose the game before it begins. If he's done that, he's done his job. He can just go sit on an objective and be hard to get off. By placing your units in reserve you ensure they at least get a shot off before serpent shields start making a mockery of you. And if enough reserves come in and do enough damage, they might reconsider using them as weapons.

Outside of putting their better units in our lists, what would you do Klaivex Charondyr? How would you approach Mechdar? You can point out problems in my strategy all day, but if you don't provide alternative solutions it doesn't provide much to the conversation. I suppose I could glue wave serpents on top of my raiders and pretend I stole them.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Thu Oct 09 2014, 02:37

I just want to point out that you're not the only codex with problems against Eldar... I would say EVERY codex has a probels vs Eldar. It doesn't automatically make the codex bad because of it.

I like the way GW are going with the recent codex's, by not making things over powered it means there are many ways to play an army and you will actually have models left by the end of the game. A game that's over by Turn 2 is not fun...

And if you think GW won't release a new codex for Eldar... by far the most popular codex right now, then you obviously don't think GW want to make money...
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Thu Oct 09 2014, 03:17

I'd like to take the discussion in a slightly different direction: What if GW's intent was to move the DE away from alpha strike?  I've believed for a couple of years now (of the 7 I've played) that GW's perfect game is a beer and pretzels draw.  You simply don't know the outcome until turn last.  Alpha strike is antithetical to this concept, and the fluff be hosed.

From that standpoint, the reworked PfP makes perfect sense: we're supposed to play 'circle the wagons' for a few turns until the later attributes take hold.  Since GW has also effectively stated the DE are meant to be difficult to play, then surviving those first turns for the late game draw suits the new PfP well.

Other things seem to be attempts as streamlining play: the new combat drugs add no abilities, just attribute buffs.  The loss of the d6 attacks for the Talos feels forced, but keeps play moving.  A dozen or more other things.  Bladevaning broke old play rules; now they fit into an existing box (HoW).  It's as if GW is moving away from army uniqueness and imposing artificial consistencies across armies.  Good for game design, p**s poor for flavor.

Like most of us, I'm going to have to rework my lists and my expectations of playstyle.  It's not the end of Commoragh, but it's going to be a very different experience.

Editorial note: I like the fact DE are difficult to play, I don't like being (figuratively) told I'm not supposed to win.

As far as making money, I recall a quote from Jervis that basically said, if we think it's good in the game, its going to cost points and cash.  I see nothing in this codex and price lists that contradicts that statement.  Instead, GW has made everything (even wyches) useful to play to a draw, and little to play to an early win, if at all.

Is this 'There is only war'?  No.  Is this a game and is this a business? Yes.  And that may be a pity.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Thu Oct 09 2014, 03:23

@HERO wrote:

Don't even need to take it out. Just make it one use only and maybe reduce it to D3+1 shots. Serpents would still be tough but they would lack the overwhelming firepower that they currently have. I'd also be tempted to get rid of laser lock from scatter lasers.

Agreed. Does not neet to be a one use, just make it a D3+1 and it is actually quite a decent level play.


Quote :
Scourges with Haywires looks to be a nice replacement for the Ravager, or rather, it can supplement Ravager shooting, but they're also vulnerable to the high-volume shots that Mechdar can put out they do not Ignore Cover like they do.

Well, I am now convinced that I need them based upon my two test games, one against a Marine player and the other against an Eldar player. Haywire does help in the reduction of hull points. Ravagers are still a hit-or-miss for me, while the Voidraven did wonders against Serpents.

In many ways, due to their Skimmer rule I am relying on them Jinking when I shoot at them to reduce their firepower significantly. My battle with Eldar ended up as a jinking battle, but I lost due to me not having ObSec (Yeah I was playing with Realspace Raid Detachment and with 5 flyers).

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Thu Oct 09 2014, 08:29


Quote :

Outside of putting their better units in our lists, what would you do Klaivex Charondyr? How would you approach Mechdar? You can point out problems in my strategy all day, but if you don't provide alternative solutions it doesn't provide much to the conversation. I suppose I could glue wave serpents on top of my raiders and pretend I stole them.

Thats the point. There is no way against an equally skilled opponent.

You have 2 major strenghts. Mobility (this is a huge one) and Firepower.
Eldar have exactly the same mobility, provide more firepower AND add in increased survivability (nearly all their Armour is flat out better and all their vehicles come with AV12 while sitting on an even better 3+ jink which can stack with stealth).
So you cant outrun them, you cant outgun them and they even add more difficult to kill models.
The pricing for the Talos alone is horrific... more expensive than a SM walker and still can be wounded by S4.

In short: add Eldar to your Dark Eldar or just lose. Or pay against significant weaker opponents.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Thu Oct 09 2014, 08:45

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
The pricing for the Talos alone is horrific... more expensive than a SM walker and still can be wounded by S4.

Seriously? Firstly walkers are terrible this edition (aside from the Imperial Knight). Mainly because they can get put out of action by a single shot (immobilised, weapon destroyed, explodes), even getting stunned is a major hindrance. They also don't come with two inbuilt saves 3+/5+FNP which reduce a large amount of incoming damage from things that would cause a dreadnought serious concern. Walkers don't even have move through cover, making them slower than MCs (and making them fail a lot of charges). So what if a talos has a 2.4% chance of suffering a wound by a bolter shot. The fact that it is far more survivable against high strength shooting is the important part. In terms of damage output again the talos surpasses the dreadnought's WS4 and 3 attacks on the charge, a talos is WS5 and has 5 attacks on the charge.

In short their's a reason monstrous creatures are successful in 40k and walkers that are not supper heavies are not.

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