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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Thu Oct 09 2014, 08:52

THe simplification of rules goes in cycles. I've been playing long enough to remember 2nd edition, and 3rd was a massive slash in the complication of the game (imagine how long it took to save wounds on terminators when each save was taken on 2D6). 4th saw the reintroduciton of more unique flavourful rules, as did 5th then 6th started the cut back that 7th has completed. I confidently predict that 8th edition codexes will start bringing uniqueness back to armies. It's the same with models, I've seen more than one loop of 'we don't want anything in the codex that hasn't got a model' to 'we want to give hobbyists the opportunity to convert up their own models for special characters - please send us the pictures'.

I'd expect Eldar and Tau to get early replacement books that see a lot of their advantages curtailed.

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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Thu Oct 09 2014, 09:15

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
THe simplification of rules goes in cycles. I've been playing long enough to remember 2nd edition, and 3rd was a massive slash in the complication of the game (imagine how long it took to save wounds on terminators when each save was taken on 2D6). 4th saw the reintroduciton of more unique flavourful rules, as did 5th then 6th started the cut back that 7th has completed. I confidently predict that 8th edition codexes will start bringing uniqueness back to armies. It's the same with models, I've seen more than one loop of 'we don't want anything in the codex that hasn't got a model' to 'we want to give hobbyists the opportunity to convert up their own models for special characters - please send us the pictures'.

I'd expect Eldar and Tau to get early replacement books that see a lot of their advantages curtailed.

I agree with this completely. And with this simplification every edition, GW has consistently demolished the (flavour of the) Dark Eldar army. And with this latest release, almost nothing is left of it. If I'd want to field T5 or T7 models that move 6" a turn, I'd play a different army.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Thu Oct 09 2014, 09:56

Quote :

In short their's a reason monstrous creatures are successful in 40k and walkers that are not supper heavies are not.

FLYING Monstrous creatures. Non-flying Hive tyrants, melee carnifex, Eldar Avatar, non winged daemon princes, Wraithlord... are not successful either. And if you look at the lates releases, the SW dread comes with a 3++ and rerolls on the damage table if penetrated.
Not saying Dreads are any good. But they are in a similar league as the talos (who in turn can be affected by ID, poison and snipers) and come at 95 points.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Thu Oct 09 2014, 10:02

Some dreads are more effective than others. I like the marine Ironclad, which took down a riptide for me last week, and the death company dread with blood talons is just fun against monstrous creatures with a 3+ save (a potentially endless supply of wounds if you roll well enough!). I think dreads and MCs are on more of a level playing field this edition, though it definitely helps to have armour 13 at the front, otherwise krak grenades are going to worry you.

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Bowlzee
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Thu Oct 09 2014, 10:30

Time to invest in the Tantalus? Atleast its AV12... It also still has flickerfields...for now.

Forgeworld have been notoriously slow with updating things to 7th...it might keep them for some time yet.
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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Thu Oct 09 2014, 10:48

@Bowlzee wrote:
Time to invest in the Tantalus? Atleast its AV12... It also still has flickerfields...for now.

Forgeworld have been notoriously slow with updating things to 7th...it might keep them for some time yet.

Well, at the least you'll get a gorgeous model, but like most things in the new Dark Eldar codex, it's more aesthetically pleasing than effective in-game.
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Ichi Aenis
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Thu Oct 09 2014, 13:01

This is going to seem like a petty gripe compared to the whole shizstorm debating about if the new codex is or isn't good but I'm going to put it out there anyway...

I was an old skool Eldar player (back in the days of the warp deck...up to the release of the Vyper model), me & my buddies used to play a lot. Then they brought the whole revamp in with the rolling for assault & the transition was too alien...so we played WHFB for the last Xyrs.
6th edition comes out & my long standing school friend decides he's going to give it a go & takes on Tau & I (having always liked the look of the Dark Elves/Dark Eldar) signed up with the slavers of Comorragh.

I digress

Over the last 6+ months, after he got his spangly Tau codex & his Riptide, I've been "when's mine due" like a spoiled child. Eldar came out, with a Wraith Knight. Then Chaos with the Khornbined Harvester...Ok ok, so we got the Voidraven...but that should have had a model for about 4years now?

Is it petty to wonder where our uber, special, "bigger than the previous one" model is?

Also...no Lord of War...why? (yes I'm aware of the tantalus...but the armies that have them thus far don't have to get them from Forgeworld).

These are all probably points that have been raised previously...I'm playing catch-up, so I'm sorry if that's the case.

I just feel like I kept waiting & waiting, seeing progressively better Codex after Codex...then get ours &...it's such an anticlimax. Don't get me wrong, It's not like I was expecting a necrotoxin nuke of a OP book...but what's between those hardback bindings is so lacklustre. scratch
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KiriONE
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Thu Oct 09 2014, 16:20

I think it's inevitable that any codex will be compared to Tau and Eldar, and to some degree Daemons.  Tau I will say has lost a little bit of it's edge with the change to the allies chart in 7th, but that's neither here nor there.

I think at the end of the day, you need look no further than the Dark Eldar codex to begin to understand how GW conducts their business.  As Hero, and others pointed out in the assessment of the codex there's a lot of WHY involved with some of these changes.  If the Eldar, Tau, Daemon codices see changes that weaken certain aspects of that codex we'll know why.  Since, as this thread has been keen to point out, they are the strongest books on the shelf.  But that isn't the case for DE.  DE has always been considered a sort of "hard mode" given how fragile the army is.

Let's just look for a second at models that are considered to be buffed by most people:

^ Court of the Archon: Finecast $16 per model
^ Mandrakes: Finecast $33 per 5
^ Grotesques:  Finecast $25 per model*
^ Beastmasters: Finecast $19, $16-$25 per beast
^ Scourges: Plastic $25 per 5
^ Talos/Cronos: Plastic $46 per model
*sold out

If you are licking your chops at the prospect of 10 grotesques stepping through a webway portal with a haemonculus, get ready to shell out the money.  That will run you $250 (USD) before any taxes.  For the same amount of price you could get 2 of the old battleforces which would net you 20 Warriors, 20 Wyches, 6 Reavers, and 2 Raiders.  Which would clock in at ~700+ points (new codex costs) as opposed to your 350ish of Grots.

What about Beastmasters?  Running a crazy Bird Man setup of Razorwing flocks will cost you a pretty penny as well.  Wracks, despite no longer being finecast still cost about the same.  Mandrakes, who were probably making GW less than $2000 annually (roughly 60 kits) are actually worth considering now.  Then you've got the Talos which hasn't changed all that much aside from the fact they allow you to bring MORE.

All the while you've got a supplemental codex (another $50), pushing you towards those units (which are clearly better) while simultaneously bringing down the value of other units (Kabal/Cults).  I'll note that Kabals are pretty much the same, it's just that if you are like me and drowning in Wyches you're not really finding a reason to bring them compared to the rest of the codex.

Then look at the FA Raider change.  Everything in our codex that can take or needs a Raider can in its own DT entry for it.  While Venoms could be used as mobile gunboats, why would you ever need a Raider in your FA slot? To me that's a pretty clear case of them wanting you put ALLIES in them (aka Eldar, aka if you don't have some, maybe you should get some *wink wink*).

This isn't a gripe about GW, that's their business.  I don't think it's that far of a stretch to say that this release is the most clear case of them writing rules in order to direct sales.  After all this is the same company that introduced an entirely new Psyker tree which will require you to buy more models if you want to use it.

In the end I still think the release looks like more of an afterthought and a business decision rather than an actual advancement or balancing of their game.  No new entries, 1 new model of a pre-existing entry, recasts of totally acceptable models.  I'll point out that the plastic versions of Haem/Archon are MORE expensive than their Finecast predecessors and Wracks are the same if not slightly higher.  In fact 2 boxes of assault terminators cost roughly the same as 2 wrack squads and a Raider/2x Venom, would you say those units are comparable on the tabletop?  Then there's the whole Unique Character debacle.

I don't think this codex is bad, I'm just recognizing for what it is: A vessel to sell models, regardless of what customer expectations are or the what state the current game is in.
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Selvhan
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Thu Oct 09 2014, 18:12

@KiriONE :

Honestly, the reasons why I continue playing WH is because I already own a lot of models and because I have a group to play every week. Take the Grey Knight codex as example, they released a new supplement for the inquisition and assassin, but it's the exact same thing as in the previous GK codex. Words for words. Can it be worst ?

Also, they are pushing so much to take ally that I'm pretty sure that one day, there will be only one codex for the Eldar/Dark Eldar. Or maybe the Dark Eldar will become an Eldar supplement. Who know's ?
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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Thu Oct 09 2014, 23:20

/Rant
I find it amusing when people find out the GW is a corporate business. They are on the stock market, so they have to show good numbers in sales.
It is what we call capitalism. If GW wouldn't make money on their core business, they would go out of business, right?
If I'm not mistaken, GW publicly declared that they stopped supporting the tournament scene. Why? Because it is a very demanding and lengthy task to constantly balance with that many different units and armies in the whole of a rule set, that can be played with any codex.
Certainly not a good option if you want to make money while doing this.
I would make the same rational choice if I were the CEO of GW.

So you are angry at capitalism I tell you, not 40k. 40k for me is a world to live fantasy and live in the moment when my Succubus Gralenxh is about to chop your captain Strevius in pieceses.
I gave up tournament gaming (gaming for winning) and only play for fun now. What in my opinion the true nature of a game is.

But if you would like to tell GW how to run their business. Tournament player should unite all costumers under the flag of an "Ever Balanced" gaming platform where champions in tactical choices and strategic unit choices come together... at a table-top.
Seriously if you would get like 30% off all customers united. You could go on strike. Dropping sales by 30% is a HUGE thing in economics. So stock trade value would drop. The board of GW would notice you, for as long as the sales are down.
Now if you where to unite a players fund to invest in a better game with cooler models, fluff and all that jazz, you could drive the stock trade to such a low point that you would be a shareholder on the board that would have a voice that is listened to.

It might work if we get motivated enough to connect which equal minded and show some leadership in taking matters in own hands.
(not that I'm such a big economics guy but I know this can work, we just didn't try yet)
Rant\

So from a point of view of a casual gamer (getting kids quite cuts down weekend and evening gaming time) I like the first looks of the new iteration of our beloved Dark Eldar.

For me the most important changes are the Army Wide rules: PfP and Combat Drugs.
I feel we have got a boost on both fields.
PfP is automatic, no longer I wonder what could I have done better to get that extra pain token. It complicated play too much to get a real benefit out it. Now? Just play your turns and things get juicier for Dark Eldar. They soak in the pain and torment of friend and foe and revel Twisted Evil

Combat drugs effect all boost your assault phase. We now get a chance at Toughness boost. So we get more mileage out of FnP and are more survivable. Some rolls are more beneficial than others, so I did expected some way of buying a RR on the drugs role. But still overall good! I'm so glad that my Wyches can stop being faster than Usain Bolt because they took the wrong dope :facepalm:

So if you look now at all units that profit from these rules and whose points stayed equal or decreased. They all got buffed in my book.
So even Wyches, as the profit from both Army special rules. Sure they lost HwG but it was an aberration: elf space gladiators taking out vehicles? How boring is that, even the children in Commarragh could pull that trick off! Going toe-to-toe with real melee enemies with only wearing your bikini set / Borat on and your uncanny dodges as defence (super designer drugs). Now that takes real skill and balls!
In short: I think Wyches are nice OS troops who can pin a non troop in CC on an Objective and score while slowly whittling down the enemy.
Or you can join in another unit (that lacks grenades) to speed up the process of killing.
Even with T3 wyches are an effective tarpit. They can go 4++ Fnp or (4+) with Spirit Probe. Having to kill a Wych 1,33 or 1,5 times instead of once, is a difference in time which equals more attacks coming in from the Wyches.

Now not all is positive as most people have seen, Bloodbrides, Hellions, Beasts and disputable Mandrakes (because of hard counter: Ignore Cover) are units which are questionable on their actual use in a game of 40k today.
Bloodbrides, really? No special numbers in regard to wyches, so no you can't get more than 1 Wych Weapon in an IC bodyguards??
Beasts are in heavy competition in FA and are over-classed in many builds by the Court, which doesn't take up a FoC slot if you take an Archon. Only viable option is a cheap Khymerae squad as someone said. The are beasts (which is unique in our codex) so are really fast. Have some survivability and can deliver a punch. They also cause fear if you want to experiment with Ld altering.
Hellions are overclassed at shooting by Beastmasters. They do it cheaper, are faster and ignore dangerous terrain tests. CC isn't the proper place for Hellions anymore, without grenades or a real chance on a save roll (jink) they can't afford to take AND overwatch AND strike at I1. They might join in a combat to mop-up, but then you waste their shooting.
And Mandrakes, they did get a lot of buffs but also loosed the ability to save anything but cover. So in CC your back to FnP ALONE at T3. As you are infiltrates, chances are that the opponent manages to charge you in Turn 2 and you'll only have FnP 6+. Strange how they are inefficient in combat. I would have given them Deamon Special Rule. It fits with their looks. It would only mean that Mandrakes have the basic Kabalite save instead of their über cover save.
Well whatever! They can do something now before they die, so that's a huge step up for these guys!
Plenty of other juicy units to play around. (and yes it costs money to get them, it's up to you how you are going to make/buy/convert your models)

I was even thinking about using the Voidraven, even with it's AV10. Sadly I don't feel the missiles on that one, yet?

Basically I'm happy we DE have got so many viable options right now and I'm motivated to build my Grotesques from Rat-Ogre Talos kit-bash Very Happy
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Dark Son
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Tue Oct 14 2014, 06:52

Let me preface this by saying I'm mostly casual player. I like to win, but im not into milking every rule possible to do so. That being said, I'm middle of the road on the new 'dex. In the beginning, I hated it, Wyches were still screwed by the fleet rule AND lost their haywires, haemonculi were no longer 1-3, wracks were no longer troop choices. In short, my meta got completely devastated. Then a very good friend gave me some very good advice, try it. So I did, I made up a 2k KRP and fought his Grey Knights. I won, but more importantly I had a blast. I've played de off and on since their inception, this was my first game I played without wyches, and I had a blast. Is this codex everything we wanted? No, but they never will be. Without this codex I never would've tried a dark eldar list largely centered on ranged attack w/a small assault support force. This codex will force alot of us to rethink our strategies, but that shouldn't be seen as a drawback, but a challenge. We may never be a top tier list, but on any given day, we can make our opponents fear the darkness!
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valmir
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Tue Oct 14 2014, 15:15

In general, I'm very quick to point out the fallacy of the nerd-rage assumption that "GW makes the new release the latest hotness so that everyone has to buy it" argument (cf: Voidraven). GW needs to turn a profit, and they don't care whether you buy a box of scourges or a box of wyches. They just want you to buy a box.

BUT

I think it's possible to argue that this codex is forcing a lot of existing players, who already have an army, to buy a lot of stuff just in order to put together a decent army list. I'm not sure that this is intentional or not, but most new books don't seem to do this to the same degree.

As a relative beginner, typically playing friendly games of below 1500 points, the book put me in a position where I felt like I couldn't play the games I had been playing previously without buying more stuff. Usually with a new book, that new stuff is new stuff, and so we don't notice it. Here, it is just more stuff.

I haven't played any games yet, so I'll hold off on any conclusions, but as I've been tinkering with army lists and reading, I have to say that my first impressions are overwhelmingly positive. I don't think the army overall has become any more powerful, but I do think it's become a lot more flexible.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Tue Oct 14 2014, 17:46

To me flexibility is power. It is not the strongest but the one that adapts best who survives.
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Lord Azrael
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Sun Oct 19 2014, 00:26

- here was a stupid question -

Nevermind, can't even read any more.  I should go sleep Wink
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Sun Oct 19 2014, 15:16

I think it has been very interesting to see the evolution of reactions to the codex.  Initially, it seemed like everyone HATED the new codex.  Then people started to see some of the possibilities opened up by the codex and the supplement and it started to get a little more positive.  And now that people have actually gotten some games in, it seems like more people are realizing that DE can still be pretty good.  And in the hands of a skilled player (like Skari or Barking Agatha) they can hang with, and even beat, the likes of Eldar, Tau, and Space Marines.  Granted it is still very early, but I think the new book is, thus far, holding its own on the table top based on the batreps and feedback I've seen on this site and others.  I've gone from borderline suicidal to downright excited about the new book.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Sun Oct 19 2014, 15:51

I still hate it. As mentioned a few times already its not about the power level. There are some of us who dislike coven for the playstyle and the miniatures. If the supplement was about Cults or Cabals, I would happily agree.
But as the best solution for the army seems to be "transform from a fast, breakable and interesting army high firepower and good melee units into an army of mutated durable and slow abominations" it has lost much appeal for me.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Sun Oct 19 2014, 16:04

Fair enough. That is a valid point. Although I don't think the Coven is a must include to be competitive. Being able to take six really good FA choices still allows us to be fast and shooty. Six units of Reavers with Caltrops and/or anti-tank weapons seems like they would still be more than decent. Or Scourges, Reavers, and Razorwings. I guess what I like most is that I think we have a lot of options now. In the old book, I only ran HWG Wyches, large beast packs, Venoms, and Ravagers. Now I've having to change how I think and play the army. But to each his own.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Codex Review   Sun Oct 19 2014, 22:59

@valmir wrote:
In general, I'm very quick to point out the fallacy of the nerd-rage assumption that "GW makes the new release the latest hotness so that everyone has to buy it" argument (cf: Voidraven). GW needs to turn a profit, and they don't care whether you buy a box of scourges or a box of wyches. They just want you to buy a box.

BUT

I think it's possible to argue that this codex is forcing a lot of existing players, who already have an army, to buy a lot of stuff just in order to put together a decent army list. I'm not sure that this is intentional or not, but most new books don't seem to do this to the same degree.

As a relative beginner, typically playing friendly games of below 1500 points, the book put me in a position where I felt like I couldn't play the games I had been playing previously without buying more stuff. Usually with a new book, that new stuff is new stuff, and so we don't notice it. Here, it is just more stuff.

A good point, but I think that if existing players need to buy new models, that where already there (as there has been no new unit added) then that shows that the internal balance wasn't there to begin with.
I also haven't had the opportunity to test the new dex but think that the internal balance is now better.
For example, in the HQ section, each HQ has a specific roll to preform. The heami is support and buffer, both Archon and Succubus are CC oriented but if the Archon had excess to an AP2 CC weapon, then no one would take the Succubus. So either you take the more durable Archon without AP2 or you take the Succubus and have to live with here being the two glass cannon.

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