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Deamon
Sybarite
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Mon Oct 06 2014, 19:37

@django_unchained wrote:
Here's a 2k list:

Urien
Haemy

Troops:

10 warriors, 1 w/ splinter cannon; Raider, night shields, splinter wracks
10 warriors, 1 w/ splinter cannon; Raider, night shields, splinter wracks
10 warriors, 1 w/ splinter cannon; Raider, night shields, splinter wracks
10 warriors, 1 w/ splinter cannon; Raider, night shields, splinter wracks

Fast attack:

5 scourge, haywire
5 scourge, haywire

venom dual splinter cannon
venom dual splinter cannon
venom dual splinter cannon

Razorwing
Razorwing

Elites:

4 grotesques, (in unit with Urien and haemy)

Dedicated transports (noted above)

Raider, night shields splinter racks
Raider, night shields splinter racks
Raider, night shields splinter racks
Raider, night shields splinter racks
Raider, night shields



Heavy Support:
Void Raven


This is two CAD with the DE detachment as one of them at 2000 points. GG

That list would get wrecked by any vehicule heavy list...
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Mon Oct 06 2014, 19:56

@Spiney Norman wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
They are refering to this (WD34):

Quote :
The Wracks kit contains five multi-part plastic models, macabre servants of the Haemonculi. Each Wrack has access to a bewildering array of weapons, from hooked blades and studded clubs to power mauls and exotic guns, such as the hex rifle, liquifier and ossefactor.

In this Article they explain the new kit. No mention of the minigame here. And yes, they indeed mention power mauls as part of the kit.

Were you also expecting the new codex to include rules for "hooked blades" and "studded clubs"? Its quite obvious it was just flavour text, this seems like moaning for the sake of moaning if you ask me.

While hooked blades and studded clubs are normal CC weapons (you have that kind of description in a lot of units as in "fangs and claws") a power maul is a specific weapon with specific rules attatched to it.
You dont go and tell your opponent that your predator has lascannons and by lascannons you actually mean autocannons but keep calling them lascannons because you like the word more.
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django_unchained
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Mon Oct 06 2014, 20:00

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
@django_unchained wrote:
I don't feel cheated at all! They wrote us an excellent book, with tons of competitive builds! I think the bomber's going to be a great alpha strike unit on the table top!

The bomber is probably the most bloated worthless unit in the codex. Fully kitted out it's almost the price of a storm raven with none of the durability, none of the special rules, no transport capacity, and similar weaponry, however that weaponry isn't mounted on a turrent, so aside from not having hover or vector dancer it's mobility is worse than the storm raven too. Unkitted it's the price of a heldrake, which is a lot more durable and can use it's "bomb" every turn. The white dwarf didn't lie:

Enemies don't notice the void raven. In fact they try to look away to spare you the embarrassment of including it in your list.


3+ jink I pretty durable. Combine that with 1 str9 ap2 large blast, 2 str 8 ap2 small blasts and missiles and it's got a ton of firepower.

Sens it's payload down, jink return fire, then fly it off and have it come on and do it again. It's 40 Pts more than a raider with racks and night shield hilding 10 warriors, and it does much more damage.

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django_unchained
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Mon Oct 06 2014, 20:02

@Deamon wrote:
@django_unchained wrote:
Here's a 2k list:

Urien
Haemy

Troops:

10 warriors, 1 w/ splinter cannon; Raider, night shields, splinter wracks
10 warriors, 1 w/ splinter cannon; Raider, night shields, splinter wracks
10 warriors, 1 w/ splinter cannon; Raider, night shields, splinter wracks
10 warriors, 1 w/ splinter cannon; Raider, night shields, splinter wracks

Fast attack:

5 scourge, haywire
5 scourge, haywire

venom dual splinter cannon
venom dual splinter cannon
venom dual splinter cannon

Razorwing
Razorwing

Elites:

4 grotesques, (in unit with Urien and haemy)

Dedicated transports (noted above)

Raider, night shields splinter racks
Raider, night shields splinter racks
Raider, night shields splinter racks
Raider, night shields splinter racks
Raider, night shields



Heavy Support:
Void Raven


This is two CAD with the DE detachment as one of them at 2000 points. GG

That list would get wrecked by any vehicule heavy list...


Possibly. Anither option is to dump 1 kabalites raider and one venom and include 2 more units of haywire scourges.
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Expletive Deleted
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Mon Oct 06 2014, 20:08

@django_unchained wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:
@django_unchained wrote:
I don't feel cheated at all! They wrote us an excellent book, with tons of competitive builds! I think the bomber's going to be a great alpha strike unit on the table top!

The bomber is probably the most bloated worthless unit in the codex. Fully kitted out it's almost the price of a storm raven with none of the durability, none of the special rules, no transport capacity, and similar weaponry, however that weaponry isn't mounted on a turrent, so aside from not having hover or vector dancer it's mobility is worse than the storm raven too. Unkitted it's the price of a heldrake, which is a lot more durable and can use it's "bomb" every turn. The white dwarf didn't lie:

Enemies don't notice the void raven. In fact they try to look away to spare you the embarrassment of including it in your list.


3+ jink I pretty durable. Combine that with 1 str9 ap2 large blast, 2 str 8 ap2 small blasts and missiles and it's got a ton of firepower.

Sens it's payload down, jink return fire, then fly it off and have it come on and do it again. It's 40 Pts more than a raider with racks and night shield hilding 10 warriors, and it does much more damage.


Hmm. Yes. Excellent strategy. If it doesn't come in until turn three and your game ends on turn five, it will fire it's weapons exactly once. While those warriors can fire all game and capture an objective.

I may sound a bit snide, but the unit is garbage, and I'd rather not have anyone field it with high hopes.

Edit: Twice. They can fire their weapons twice. Haven't watched Sesame Street in ages so my counting is a bit rusty.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Mon Oct 06 2014, 20:16

Quote :
3+ jink I pretty durable. Combine that with 1 str9 ap2 large blast, 2 str 8 ap2 small blasts and missiles and it's got a ton of firepower.

You are not gonna drop blasts when jinking.
Interceptor still exists and defence lines are still quite common (especially as you can fire that quadgun on antigrav too)
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django_unchained
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Mon Oct 06 2014, 20:19

Firing twice is enough when most of it payload are one time use. I think the unit is much better than people give it credit for. Especially hen the book has been out for 3 days...

Remember, people's initial reactions the past couple of years: heldrakes are bad. Eldars new codex is garbage. Etc etc.

I think the bomber will be just fine. Smile
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django_unchained
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Mon Oct 06 2014, 20:21

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
3+ jink I pretty durable. Combine that with 1 str9 ap2 large blast, 2 str 8 ap2 small blasts and missiles and it's got a ton of firepower.

You are not gonna drop blasts when jinking.
Interceptor still exists and defence lines are still quite common (especially as you can fire that quadgun on antigrav too)

Hence why you fly off the turn after jinking.

Quad gun does exist. It's also a 2 wound model with toughness out splinter weapons ignore. We have enough alpha strike firepower to take out intercepting units.
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Spiney Norman
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Mon Oct 06 2014, 20:21

@Expletive Deleted wrote:

Hmm. Yes. Excellent strategy. If it doesn't come in until turn three and your game ends on turn five, it will fire it's weapons exactly once. While those warriors can fire all game and capture an objective.

I may sound a bit snide, but the unit is garbage, and I'd rather not have anyone field it with high hopes.

Edit: Twice. They can fire their weapons twice. Haven't watched Sesame Street in ages so my counting is a bit rusty.

As much as I hate to say it, I agree with the above, the raven makes the Razorwing look pretty good, it will be one of those models that I buy so I can paint it up for my cabinet, there is a slot for it right alongside my Dark Angel Nephilim. The model is undeniably gorgeous, but nerfing it down to A10 AND removing the Flickerfield option was a very poor decision.

Its worth noting that even if it does come on in T2 its still only getting two turns of shooting in a 5 turn game.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Mon Oct 06 2014, 20:22

Sorry to step in, but this thread is not about Lists and their Critique and Comments. Please keep on topic or start another one with the list in question. :-)
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Mon Oct 06 2014, 20:59

Quote :

Remember, people's initial reactions the past couple of years: heldrakes are bad. Eldars new codex is garbage.

Said no one ever.
To be fair heldrakes where buffed extremely through that errata and are now changed again and suddenly they have drastically reduced "screentime" and I dont see any CSM armys (by that I mean Cultists and Heldrakes) in the top 10 on tourneys anymore.
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Mayk0l
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Mon Oct 06 2014, 23:09

@barenone wrote:
I feel like I was cheated. I ordered bomber and codex. 1 Day shipping preorder one first day it was available. Still have nothing. I give them a call and it will be at my house on the 14th. Some 1 day freaking shipping there. Wont know if i feel bad or good about codex until it arrives.

I know how you feel. I preordered the Dracon edition and as a thank you from GW I am still waiting on my codex. Last time I ever buy a Limited Edition. Shame.
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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Mon Oct 06 2014, 23:36

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Mind you, GW also managed to produce a beautiful Succubus model with weaponry it can't actually take...

It does actually work, i discribed it in the New Succubus mini illegally equiped?.

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django_unchained
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Tue Oct 07 2014, 00:34

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :

Remember, people's initial reactions the past couple of years: heldrakes are bad. Eldars new codex is garbage.

Said no one ever.
To be fair heldrakes where buffed extremely through that errata and are now changed again and suddenly they have drastically reduced "screentime" and I dont see any CSM armys (by that I mean Cultists and Heldrakes) in the top 10 on tourneys anymore.



When the heldrakes came out people called it bad.

WHEN the eldar leaks came out, people called them bad as well.
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Its_Rumble
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Tue Oct 07 2014, 02:20

Everyone complaining about the Wracks FYI the coven supplement might hold all of that info, probably not but it might.

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Its_Rumble
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Tue Oct 07 2014, 02:21

@django_unchained wrote:
@aurynn wrote:
My screen just bled sarcasm while displaying your post. :-D

I was actually being serious. This book got insanely strong.

The new 6 FA detachment is nuts
Grots got super good
Urien is awesome and a great boost to power from pain
3+ Jink is so nasty!
venoms as FA?! 65 pts for 12 splinter shots, without having to purchase the crew tax. That's BALLER!
Haywire scourges, see ya later mech and knights!


The lists go on and on. These guys are VERY competitive now.


I agree with you. We have many new tools and the army looks like a lot of fun.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Tue Oct 07 2014, 13:10

@django_unchained wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :

Remember, people's initial reactions the past couple of years: heldrakes are bad. Eldars new codex is garbage.

Said no one ever.
To be fair heldrakes where buffed extremely through that errata and are now changed again and suddenly they have drastically reduced "screentime" and I dont see any CSM armys (by that I mean Cultists and Heldrakes) in the top 10 on tourneys anymore.



When the heldrakes came out people called it bad.

WHEN the eldar leaks came out, people called them bad as well.

When Heldrakes came out, they actually where bad.
When an errata made the torrent 360° he was suddenly good. Ask yourself why you usually never see any autocannon drakes if the flyer is that good and why you dont see much CSM in tourneys anymore when the torrent was again reduced to 45°.

Yes, when the leaks came out. When the codex came out this stopped. Not the case here. Codex is out, no more talking about any leaks and its still sub par.
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django_unchained
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Tue Oct 07 2014, 13:33

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
@django_unchained wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :

Remember, people's initial reactions the past couple of years: heldrakes are bad. Eldars new codex is garbage.

Said no one ever.
To be fair heldrakes where buffed extremely through that errata and are now changed again and suddenly they have drastically reduced "screentime" and I dont see any CSM armys (by that I mean Cultists and Heldrakes) in the top 10 on tourneys anymore.



When the heldrakes came out people called it bad.

WHEN the eldar leaks came out, people called them bad as well.

When Heldrakes came out, they actually where bad.
When an errata made the torrent 360° he was suddenly good. Ask yourself why you usually never see any autocannon drakes if the flyer is that good and why you dont see much CSM in tourneys anymore when the torrent was again reduced to 45°.

Yes, when the leaks came out. When the codex came out this stopped. Not the case here. Codex is out, no more talking about any leaks and its still sub par.

You couldn't be more wrong dude. You'll find out in a couple of weeks just how good this book is.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Tue Oct 07 2014, 13:55

@django_unchained wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
@django_unchained wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :

Remember, people's initial reactions the past couple of years: heldrakes are bad. Eldars new codex is garbage.

Said no one ever.
To be fair heldrakes where buffed extremely through that errata and are now changed again and suddenly they have drastically reduced "screentime" and I dont see any CSM armys (by that I mean Cultists and Heldrakes) in the top 10 on tourneys anymore.



When the heldrakes came out people called it bad.

WHEN the eldar leaks came out, people called them bad as well.

When Heldrakes came out, they actually where bad.
When an errata made the torrent 360° he was suddenly good. Ask yourself why you usually never see any autocannon drakes if the flyer is that good and why you dont see much CSM in tourneys anymore when the torrent was again reduced to 45°.

Yes, when the leaks came out. When the codex came out this stopped. Not the case here. Codex is out, no more talking about any leaks and its still sub par.

You couldn't be more wrong dude. You'll find out in a couple of weeks just how good this book is.

Sure I will. When we start to see ELDAR abusing WWP and our Venoms/Raiders.
We wont see any Dark Eldar in Top placements on any major tourney. Just like before.
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django_unchained
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Tue Oct 07 2014, 14:33

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
@django_unchained wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
@django_unchained wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :

Remember, people's initial reactions the past couple of years: heldrakes are bad. Eldars new codex is garbage.

Said no one ever.
To be fair heldrakes where buffed extremely through that errata and are now changed again and suddenly they have drastically reduced "screentime" and I dont see any CSM armys (by that I mean Cultists and Heldrakes) in the top 10 on tourneys anymore.



When the heldrakes came out people called it bad.

WHEN the eldar leaks came out, people called them bad as well.

When Heldrakes came out, they actually where bad.
When an errata made the torrent 360° he was suddenly good. Ask yourself why you usually never see any autocannon drakes if the flyer is that good and why you dont see much CSM in tourneys anymore when the torrent was again reduced to 45°.

Yes, when the leaks came out. When the codex came out this stopped. Not the case here. Codex is out, no more talking about any leaks and its still sub par.

You couldn't be more wrong dude. You'll find out in a couple of weeks just how good this book is.

Sure I will. When we start to see ELDAR abusing WWP and our Venoms/Raiders.
We wont see any Dark Eldar in Top placements on any major tourney. Just like before.


Again, you're 100% wrong about this.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Tue Oct 07 2014, 14:41

And that is because you can forsee the future? 100% is pretty much more conformation than a DNA test.
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django_unchained
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Tue Oct 07 2014, 14:48

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
And that is because you can forsee the future? 100% is pretty much more conformation than a DNA test.

I simply understand how the game works, and I have taken down 3 RTT's with the OLD dex. (I don't attend GTs, due to wife and baby). The new book is a straight 100% upgrade. You'll be seeing a lot of good players with this good book at the top tables at tourneys.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Tue Oct 07 2014, 14:53

Quote :
You'll be seeing a lot of good players with this good book at the top tables at tourneys.

Because Space Marines, Eldar and Tau get banned from tourneys?
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django_unchained
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Tue Oct 07 2014, 14:58

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
You'll be seeing a lot of good players with this good book at the top tables at tourneys.

Because Space Marines, Eldar and Tau get banned from tourneys?

I've always had issues with eldar with my DE. but NEVER SM or Tau. I spank them pretty handily.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Were we cheated by GW?    Tue Oct 07 2014, 15:09

Not sure about other tourneys, but the last Throne of Skulls at GW head office had a Dark Eldar player as joint top scorer, alongside a guy who took a pure Imperial Knight list.

I think there is plenty of opportunity in the book to make good, competitive lists, and I am looking forward to browsing the tactics section when we've had a couple of weeks with the book to see what some of the members on here come up with.

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