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Obeliske
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PostSubject: Question about wracks   Sun Oct 05 2014, 07:36

According to the new codex "for every 5 models in the unit, one wrack can replace a wrack tool with one of the following -liquefier -ossefactor" one model may be upgraded to an acothyst who may take items from the weapons of torture and/or tools of torment lists.

Included on said list under the tools of torment it says "a model may replace their ranged and/or melee weapon with one of the following -stinger pistol -hexrifle -liquefier gun"

I read this as meaning i can equip say an ossifier on a wrack then upgrade one wrack to an acothyst and equip him with a liquefier gun. Am i wrong on that? As the unit still has 5 models in it i should be fine on this (it doesn't say i require 5 wracks just 5 models and the acothyst has his own equipment list). This aside could i equip the acothyst with ie. 2 liquefier guns? Assuming i can replace both his melee and ranged weapons with them (as he comes defaulted with 2 wrack tools he has 2 to replace) is this allowed/acceptable?

On a side question the wrack says he has 2 wrack tools but the stat table says he only has one attack is that taking into account the second wrack tool? Or is something off here?
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Sun Oct 05 2014, 10:27

The extra attack for 2 weapons is never included in the profile of any unit that I am aware of.

The trick with the units special weapon is as soon as you upgrade him he is no longer a wrack and thus his weapon load is not legal

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Obeliske
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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Sun Oct 05 2014, 16:08

I'd assumed he kept the weapons from being a wrack. Where does it say otherwise? Also if he doesn't keep them what DOES he get?? It says he "may" take items from the lists not that he "has" to things get a little confusing because of the wording Razz
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Garacesh
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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Sun Oct 05 2014, 16:43

I think maybe it's bad wording but 'the spirit' of the codex is that models are upgraded 'bare' and then assigned upgrades afterwards. In the same 'spirit' that you couldn't give a warrior a splinter cannon then upgrade it to a sybarite.

Does seem to be a case of bad wording though.
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DingK
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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Sun Oct 05 2014, 16:50

No need for the Acothyst: he "can replace a Wrack tool with one of the following:..."

Not "one of his Wrack tools" or "either of the following". RAW, a single Wrack can take both.
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Obeliske
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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Sun Oct 05 2014, 17:56

I'm sorry DingK can you clarify what you mean by that?

Also nobody answered if I can have a Wrack and an Acothyst each have a ranged weapon in a unit of 5.

I'm wondering about the dual wielding ie. hexfire pistols or liquefiers on specifically the Acothyst as it says I may replace my ranged and melee weapons with -blah-. As such if the Acothyst has 2 weapons it doesn't matter what kind then both could be replaced.
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DingK
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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Sun Oct 05 2014, 18:14

@Obeliske wrote:
I'm sorry DingK can you clarify what you mean by that?

A Wrack has two Wrack tools in his wargear. The datasheet he can replace "a Wrack tool" with "one of the following". RAW, it could be argued he can replace one tool with a LG, and the other with an Ossefactor.

@Obeliske wrote:

Also nobody answered if I can have a Wrack and an Acothyst each have a ranged weapon in a unit of 5.

Seems to me you can.

@Obeliske wrote:
I'm wondering about the dual wielding ie. hexfire pistols or liquefiers on specifically the Acothyst as it says I may replace my ranged and melee weapons with -blah-. As such if the Acothyst has 2 weapons it doesn't matter what kind then both could be replaced.

RAW, again one could argue you could replace both CCW with the same i.e. two Hexrifles. RAI I'm sure GW meant you could pick one Weapon of Torture and one Tool of Torment.
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Obeliske
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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Sun Oct 05 2014, 18:34

I would like to point out as well my wife plays Tyranids and under the Carnifex brood (among others) it says "any model may take items from the monstrous bio-cannons and biomorphs list" as such she's done research in their forums and the people there say you can take multiple of the same weapon provided you're paying the cost. The wording on the Wracks' Acothyst is identical and so should be treated the same providing I'm paying the required cost. I'd also like to point out the current Tyranids codex has been updated for 7th and this has not been FAQ'd out.
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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Wed Oct 08 2014, 03:31

To what and with multiple weapons though? Acothyst can only fire one as not relentless.

The acothyst can have a weapon regardless of size, so a five man unit could have 2 weapons and a squad of ten could have 3.
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Obeliske
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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Wed Oct 08 2014, 05:25

The wording on the ranged weapon's state you may replace the Acothysts melee and/or ranged weapon with the ones from the list. As the model is an upgraded Wrack it comes equipped with 2 wrack tools by default (even ignoring this the Acothyst states you may take item(s) from the respective lists) you could replace both with ranged weapons allowing him to duel wield hexrifles for example. Then as there are 5 models in the unit you could give one of the Wrack's an ossifactor.

This would mean 3 ranged attacks in your Wrack group.
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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Wed Oct 08 2014, 07:04

Unfortunately I do not believe an infantry model can fire two weapons in the same shooting phase (unless they're two pistols via the Gunslinger rule).

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DingK
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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Wed Oct 08 2014, 07:07

All true, but then a Wrack equipped with both LG and Ossefactor just offers you options depending on juicy targets.
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Obeliske
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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Wed Oct 08 2014, 13:37

The wrack can only shoot once this is true but he's only got 1 ranged weapon its the Acothyst that has two weapons and he should be able to shoot each once as he has 2 attacks on his profile. If I'm wrong about that can you please reference a page that says otherwise so I can take a look?
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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Wed Oct 08 2014, 13:49

@Obeliske wrote:
The wrack can only shoot once this is true but he's only got 1 ranged weapon its the Acothyst that has two weapons and he should be able to shoot each once as he has 2 attacks on his profile. If I'm wrong about that can you please reference a page that says otherwise so I can take a look?

Shooting has nothing to do with the number of attacks on the profile.

P31 of the main rulebook states that 'typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase, although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more' There's nothing in the infantry rules that changes this, unless the two weapons are both pistols.

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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Wed Oct 08 2014, 14:01

Hmmm well I'll have to check that out thank you muchly Smile The Acothyst does still get to fire twice though even if he can only do it from one gun so I guess you could equip him with a Hexrifle and Liquifier for different situations.

Personally I'm using a stinger pistol and venom blade on my Acothyst and an Ossifacter on my Wrack. I'm gonna put in a Haemonculus with Stinger pistol, Flesh Gauntlet, and Scissorhand. Then DS them into my opponents back lines. I figure thats heart attack worthy and aught to ensure my Raiders are getting in close while he deals with that unit. If it survives on a charge they get 21 attacks and should demolish just about any unit they get into melee with. Normally this equates to 4 wracks 3 duel wielding wrack tools one with a Ossificator (7 attacks) 1 Acothyst w. Stinger Pistol + scissorhands (3 attacks) 1 Haemonculus w. Stinger Pistol, Scissorhands, Flesh Gauntlet (5 attacks).
For a total of 15 attacks then an extra 1 per model on the charge is 21. I'd probably throw some of the Artifacts of cruelty on the Heamy to keep him alive longer and make him scarier. Essentially this makes either a distraction Carnifex or a nasty nasty assault unit. I play against a Tau player so this should work fairly well.
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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Wed Oct 08 2014, 14:09

@Obeliske wrote:
Hmmm well I'll have to check that out thank you muchly Smile The Acothyst does still get to fire twice though even if he can only do it from one gun so I guess you could equip him with a Hexrifle and Liquifier for different situations.

How do you figure? They're both 1 shot weapons and the number of attacks on the acothyst's profile is only used in the combat phase.

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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Wed Oct 08 2014, 14:12

@Obeliske wrote:
Hmmm well I'll have to check that out thank you muchly Smile The Acothyst does still get to fire twice though even if he can only do it from one gun

No, he still only gets to fire once and only with one weapon. The Attack score on his profile relates only to melee attacks, not ranged.

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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Wed Oct 08 2014, 15:36

.... Hmmm I know I'm new to 40k coming over from fantasy but I have at least read the rulebook I have to double check that when I get home because thats not the impression I got at all.

I play with my wife and roomate and we've all read the rules you'd think one of us would have caught that Razz


Last edited by Obeliske on Wed Oct 08 2014, 15:43; edited 1 time in total
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Wed Oct 08 2014, 15:40

@Obeliske wrote:
.... Hmmm I know I'm new to 40k coming over from fantasy but I have at least read the rulebook I have to double check that when I get home because thats not the impression I got at all.

By all means check it for yourself but I promise you, we're right on this.

Quote :
Attacks (A)
This shows the number of times a model attacks during close combat. Most warriors and creatures have an Attacks characteristic of 1, so they will normally make one attack each in close combat

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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Wed Oct 08 2014, 15:44

And for the other part of the answer:

P40 of the rulebook, under 'Number of shots'
Quote :

Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after its type.

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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Wed Oct 08 2014, 15:50

Hmmm lucky me my wife is still at home I got her to look it up and text me your absolutely correct. I wish I'd realized that before I started glueing models together illegally! ARG. so much work to tear em apart now Razz Though it does make me wonder. My wife uses a Carnifex (I think) and gives it two gun biomorphs which aparently makes it twin linked is that legal?

Also I'd like to say "Hiya foot, meet mouth" Razz Glad I came and asked about this stuff before I finished the rest of my army Razz

NM they come twin linked by default and as she's a monstrous creature she does get to shoot multiple times.
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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Wed Oct 08 2014, 15:54

Please do not double post. Use the Edit function. Thanks - Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Wed Oct 08 2014, 16:01

yup the carnifexes are legal like that, and it's horrible to face, a friend of mine uses at least 4 of them (might be 6) in a 1500 point list along with a hive tyrant equipped the same.

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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Wed Oct 08 2014, 16:03

Yeah my wife is running 3 right now with that Prime guy in their group (so she can hide him with lookout sir rolls) and I have yet to figure out a good way to deal with that group.
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PostSubject: Re: Question about wracks   Wed Oct 08 2014, 16:05

@Obeliske wrote:
Yeah my wife is running 3 right now with that Prime guy in their group (so she can hide him with lookout sir rolls) and I have yet to figure out a good way to deal with that group.

Whilst the guns are legal (and twin-linked) unfortunately in 7th edition you can no longer run a Prime with the Carnifexes as Independent Characters can no longer join Monstrous Creatures.

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