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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sat Oct 04 2014, 22:01

My bad, they dont have to be troops. :-) But still. Trueborn are not Warriors. It is impossible for a unit to have "two names". Guys, really, its pointless to try and spend energy on finding cheese in rules gaps. Invest that energy in finding legal cheese. :-)
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benth3bear
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sat Oct 04 2014, 22:02

its not pointless as it isn't that clear, they are bought as kabalite warriors then upgraded its not black and white
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sat Oct 04 2014, 22:16

How? So you want to tell me that if you upgrade warriors to trueborn, you have an unit that is both Warriors and Trueborn? Which rules have priority then? How many special weapons can they take? How many Heavy Weapons? What is their champion called? Dracon or Sybarite? If you say that trueborn can have 4 special weapons and 2 heavies and their champion is Dracon, then clearly they cannot be Warriors, coz their rules and Champion are different.
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benth3bear
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sat Oct 04 2014, 22:18

but they are on the kabalite warrior data sheet
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sat Oct 04 2014, 22:20

How is that important?
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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sat Oct 04 2014, 22:22

Again I disagree. Where does it say they aren't still kabalite warriors?

7th Edition Codici all have Datasheets. Datasheets are how we organize things now. Datasheet, then force organization type. The formation states 6 units of kabalites, all with vehicles. The Datasheet that contains trueborn is for kabalites.

Let me repeat that. The kabalite datasheet has an option to upgrade units to trueborn. The kabalite datasheet.

We are used to the classic force org charts being law, I get where the stumbling block is here, but it just isn't so in 7th. There is no trueborn datasheet-they are kabalite upgrades. 6 Kabalite squads (in vehicles) are required for the formation- it does not matter if they are elite or troop as the formation trumps the force org chart we all know and love. This is a formation we are discussing, not a detachment. HQ, Troop, Elite etc. are used for a detachment-not (in this case, and others that currently escape me) for a formation.

For purposes of "Battle Hardened" and "Unbound" Detachments trueborn are Elites. However the formation does not specify force organization requirements. It states only that 6 units of Kabalites be taken, you wouldn't necessarily run them in the formation without say a blaster in the squad or a splinter cannon or a sybarite, all are upgrades to the kabalite warriors on the kabalite warrior datasheet just like trueborn are.

Again, if there was a separate datasheet for Trueborn I would see the point, but there isn't. Its a specific formation that uses the aforementioned datasheets to fill out. It does not require detachment organizational rules.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sat Oct 04 2014, 22:27

Can a unit be both Kabalite Warriors AND Kabalite Trueborn? The formation speaks about Kabalite WARRIORS. I am arguing that upgrading Warriors to Trueborn makes the Warriors stop being Warriors. These two units have different rules. If you are saying that Trueborn are warriors, which rules will you use?
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clively
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sat Oct 04 2014, 22:42

Seems pretty clear to me that the moment you upgrade the warrior unit to trueborn then it is no longer a warrior unit and therefore you no longer meet the requirements for the formation.

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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sat Oct 04 2014, 22:45

I think you're missing the point a bit Aurynn and needlessly overcomplicating things. Trueborn have their own rules regarding specialist weapons and such, but they are still Kabalite Trueborn, they use the Kabalite datasheet.

You have provided no reason that they stop being an upgrade to Kabalite Warriors. By your logic a sybarite is no longer a kabalite warrior, which makes no sense- A sybarite is a sergeant for a squad of Kabalite warriors. I understand where the confusion lies but follow me again if you will.

Ask yourself when you are creating the formation, are you using a Kabalite warrior Datasheet or a Trueborn datasheet? There is only one Datasheet- The Kabalite warrior datasheet, on which Trueborn are an upgrade with their own weapon distribution rules.

I don't know how to make that any clearer, but I will try.

The formation calls for specific units from specific datasheets, hellions, scourges, ravager et al and 6 kabalite warriors.
Each unit making up the formation has its own datasheet.
Each datasheet has its own upgrade options; be it heatlances for scourges, darklances for ravagers, or trueborn for kabalite warriors.
I must field 6 units of kabalite warriors, of which blasters, sybarites and trueborn are all point costed upgrades to the units-which are derived from the KABALITE WARRIOR datasheet.
I field 3 trueborn, 3 base kabalite warrior squads, I fulfil the required 6 units of kabalite warriors.

Its not a new unit, if trueborn were they would have a separate datasheet. This is how I intend to play it, you of course may play it however you choose.

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valmir
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sat Oct 04 2014, 23:14

How is the datasheet relevant? AFAIK, the BRB doesn't even reference datasheets. I don't think the fact that they share a datasheet can possibly be said to hold any rules weight whatsoever.
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sat Oct 04 2014, 23:59

The writing in the data sheet is as follows:
"May upgrade all Kabalite Warriors to Kabalite Trueborn, changing the unit's Battlefield Role to Elites..."

So it is definitely an upgrade to a unit of Kabalite Warriors, not an entire new unit in and of itself.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sun Oct 05 2014, 03:52

Imagine for a moment, if you will, that "Kabalite Trueborn" weren't called that, and were instead called "Elite Kabalite Warriors". Then start this topic from the top and replace all instances of "Kabalite Trueborn" with "Elite Kabalite Warriors". It makes this entire thread quite ridiculous when read in such a way, and really shreds one side's argument to pieces.

Kabalite trueborn, as presented in the new codex, are not a unit in and of themselves. They are an upgrade for kabalite warriors, which makes them "Elite Kabalite Warriors" who now take an elite slot instead of a troops slot, but they're still warriors. Just elite, with little badges of pedigree that say "trueborn".

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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sun Oct 05 2014, 04:14

The basic point is - that there is no way to buy a unit known as Kabalite Trueborn.

Even when you upgrade Kabalite Warriors to Trueborn - their unit entry is still that of Kabalite Warrior - only their model name changes. The unit name is *still* Kabalite Warriors.

That would seem to work fine for the formation.
I am on the side of the people who think it is possible.


If you can show me where the Unit Name (as opposed to the Model Name) changes then I will agree that it doesn't work via RAW.

I actually also think it's probably supposed to work that way RAI also - but that's just an opinion as all RAI discussion is.

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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sun Oct 05 2014, 05:03

Thinking about it further, I suspect it's RAI as well, since it seems odd for the big Kabalite Raiding Party Formation to be utterly lacking in Trueborn.

Unimportant, but interesting.

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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sun Oct 05 2014, 08:19

Thanks a lot for all the explanation the yay-side did, as now I do not need to do it.;-)

Also the last option say "The unit may select a raider...". If trueborn where a separate unit, then is would have to be "Both units may select a Raider...".

Now the formation sounds better actually.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sun Oct 05 2014, 08:25

Okay, so assuming you are right guys, then Trueborn will not be getting that 5+ cover then, right?
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Lord Abraxsas
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sun Oct 05 2014, 09:46

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
Again I disagree. Where does it say they aren't still kabalite warriors?

7th Edition Codici all have Datasheets. Datasheets are how we organize things now. Datasheet, then force organization type. The formation states 6 units of kabalites, all with vehicles. The Datasheet that contains trueborn is for kabalites.

Let me repeat that. The kabalite datasheet has an option to upgrade units to trueborn. The kabalite datasheet.

We are used to the classic force org charts being law, I get where the stumbling block is here, but it just isn't so in 7th.  There is no trueborn datasheet-they are kabalite upgrades. 6 Kabalite squads (in vehicles) are required for the formation- it does not matter if they are elite or troop as the formation trumps the force org chart we all know and love. This is a formation we are discussing, not a detachment. HQ, Troop, Elite etc. are used for a detachment-not (in this case, and others that currently escape me) for a formation.

For purposes of "Battle Hardened" and "Unbound" Detachments trueborn are Elites. However the formation does not specify force organization requirements. It states only that 6 units of Kabalites be taken, you wouldn't necessarily run them in the formation without say a blaster in the squad or a splinter cannon or a sybarite, all are upgrades to the kabalite warriors on the kabalite warrior datasheet just like trueborn are.

Again, if there was a separate datasheet for Trueborn I would see the point, but there isn't. Its a specific formation that uses the aforementioned datasheets to fill out. It does not require detachment organizational rules.
i agree totally with this. There Is confusion because we used to see trueborn and warrior like different entries but they are not anymore. They are the same , where one is the upgrade of the other, and with the upgrade they lost their troops status with all the benefits in Exchange of another statement and equip. Nothing else
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sun Oct 05 2014, 10:29

Well it would certainly make that formation... less crap TBH. :-D
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Godreas
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sun Oct 05 2014, 11:47

The trueborn as a confirmed rule is approximately on the lines of this, I was teased a bit with being able to see the kabalite warrior page

Kabalite warriors can be upgraded to Trueborn at x points per model, but if you do this, they change from Troops to Elites and for all game mechanics, they are now "Kabalite Trueborn - Elite" it is pretty clear on RAW / RAI.
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sun Oct 05 2014, 12:15

@aurynn wrote:
Okay, so assuming you are right guys, then Trueborn will not be getting that 5+ cover then, right?

Correct.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sun Oct 05 2014, 14:51

@Godreas wrote:
The trueborn as a confirmed rule is approximately on the lines of this, I was teased a bit with being able to see the kabalite warrior page

Kabalite warriors can be upgraded to Trueborn at x points per model, but if you do this, they change from Troops to Elites and for all game mechanics, they are now "Kabalite Trueborn - Elite" it is pretty clear on RAW / RAI.

Well Venerable Dread is still a Dread, isn't he?
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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sun Oct 05 2014, 19:44

@Godreas wrote:
The trueborn as a confirmed rule is approximately on the lines of this, I was teased a bit with being able to see the kabalite warrior page

Kabalite warriors can be upgraded to Trueborn at x points per model, but if you do this, they change from Troops to Elites and for all game mechanics, they are now "Kabalite Trueborn - Elite" it is pretty clear on RAW / RAI.


by this logic, Sybarites are not kabalites as they have a different name and point cost increase and blaster wielding kabalites aren't warriors anymore either as you paid for an upgrade, changing them to "Kabalite with blaster"


Does that make sense at all?

The formation asks for Kabalite warriors, not troops or elites. The codex has one datasheet for Kabalite warriors, on which trueborn are an upgrade. The name of the unit does not matter, what matters is the datasheet it comes from (i.e. the Kabalite Warrior datasheet) 7th edition codices are all about datasheets. Simply ask yourself one question for purposes of satisfying the formation requirement;

"Can I buy a squad of Trueborn without first having to buy a squad of Kabalite warriors?"

If you can answer yes, I respectfully submit that your codex may have a misprint.

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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sun Oct 05 2014, 19:47

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
by this logic, Sybarites are not kabalites as they have a different name and point cost increase and blaster wielding kabalites aren't warriors anymore either as you paid for an upgrade, changing them to "Kabalite with blaster"


Does that make sense at all?
Well, Sybarites are not Kabalite Warriors - they are Sybarites.
That said, their unit name is Kabalite Warriors.
Same with Trueborn, they are Trueborn models, but their Unit Name is, officially, Kabalite Warriors, not Trueborn.

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
The name of the unit does not matter
This is actually incorrect - the name of the unit does matter.
The name of the model does not matter.
They're different things.

As an easy to understand offering - there is a *unit* called Beastmasters and a *model* called Beastmasters.
I can buy no Beastmaster models in my Beastmaster unit - the unit is still called Beastmasters.

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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sun Oct 05 2014, 20:05

I concede your point regarding beastmasters however for the purposes of this discussion it makes no difference. My point still holds; any unit off the Kabalite Warrior datasheet is legal for purposes of the formation, on this point I think we are in agreement yes?

The formation requires the datasheet, ergo anything I pull off that datasheet is legal by the formation requirements as long as I abide by the rules of both. What I call the unit, or what the unit is called makes no difference; I can call them flaming banana donkeys Laughing as long as they are purchased off the Kabalite Warrior datasheet it should not matter.


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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   Sun Oct 05 2014, 20:41

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
I concede your point regarding beastmasters however for the purposes of this discussion it makes no difference. My point still holds; any unit off the Kabalite Warrior datasheet is legal for purposes of the formation, on this point I think we are in agreement yes?

I am actually specifically arguing for that proposition. I was just pointing out that you were arguing for it in improper ways and felt the need to correct and clarify.

The Beastmaster thing *does* matter for the discussion because it helps clarify to people getting model and unit name confused the difference in another way.

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
The formation requires the datasheet, ergo anything I pull off that datasheet is legal by the formation requirements as long as I abide by the rules of both.
That is incorrect, actually, formations require units, not datasheets. You're confusing 'datasheet' with 'unit name' and though there are many similarities, and though your conclusion is correct, you're incorrect on that specific wording.

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
What I call the unit, or what the unit is called makes no difference
What a unit is called *does* make a difference, because sometimes that matters for formations. Indeed, sometimes model names also make a difference. That said, in this instance, it does not, and I agree with that.

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