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Grub
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PostSubject: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 15:17



Seriously. I've always thought Allies were cheap especially in tournies. I know how effective Eldar are and how difficult it is without them. But I can never bring myself to use them. Is it just me? Anybody else out there flying the flag for DE alone? Any regular tournament players have any opinions either way? What about you chaps and chapesses who do use eldar allies regularly, sell them to me!

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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 15:32

Always have felt the same way, I chose to play DE, not DE + CE. Also it ruins the idea of the army, a strain of cruel, viscous raiders stealing and killing any living creature to be accompanied by the morally 'superior' race, that wears bright colors, and reject their kin. Always felt this way, and probably will stick with it, except in the cases of a campaign for narrative purposes.

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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 15:37

100% agree with you, Grub. IMO one codex should suffice by itself.
Fluffwise and rulewise, battle brothers are OK with me.
Non euclidian alliances such as Daemons + Grey Knights, or Tyranids + Blood Angels should NOT exist.

But the rules allows to bring allies, so in a competitive environment, people use all the mean they have to win. I was a competitive (L5R CCG) player years ago, so I can understand their point.
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clively
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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 15:43

No, it's not just you.

To me, a single codex should have the tools necessary to handle anything it faces. In other words, the purpose in taking allies *should* be to recreate something from a fluff perspective, like marines fighting alongside IG. It *shouldn't* be because the codex itself is too weak to deal with things it might face.

Obviously, a lot is dependent on how you build your particular list but, again, the tools ought to be present whether you choose to use them or not.

So, I'll run the new codex, and potentially the supplement, and see if I can figure out how to unlock it's potential. I'm glad it's not an obvious OTT product as I prefer a good challenge. For example, I used to play Necrons because the army was really hard to win with. When their last codex dropped I shelved them because it felt like the codex was winning, not me.

With DE, it's been a constant adjustment as other army books were released in order to keep up. I do watch what the top guys at the major tournaments run just to keep up with trends; although I've never felt a compulsion to go buy a bunch of wave serpents or an Imperial Knight. Instead I tend to experiment with list building (even taking units everyone says is garbage) within a single codex while modifying my play style to see the result. I feel like this makes me a better gamer.

In a few hours I'll be able to pick up my copy of the latest codex and the process will start all over again. Obviously there are a few things I wish they had not changed (bladevaning being at the top) however this is just another big challenge; and I'm ready.




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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 15:54

I have and always will be a player who doesn't take allies, too many fun toys in one codex to have space for stuff from another

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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 16:18

Not to be another "me too!", but I don't want to use Eldar allies with DE. I've run allies with past armies (my one and only tournament was Farsight Tau with Eldar allies), but I want to play DE as a standalone. Depending on the theme, it doesn't feel right to use Eldar allies, sorely tempting though it may be. Though to be completely fair, I have thought about Dark Eldaring an Imperial Knight. I even forged a narrative; they captured the pilot (haywire for the win!), tortured him into insanity, then sic him on the battlefield to fill their foes with fear and dread at the corrupted monstrosity.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 16:27

1009% DE, The only time i even thought about running allies was a for the hell of it idea of running imotekh from necrons with his make every turn night fighting and lightning from the sky's.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 17:04

i totally agree, for tournaments i run Seer councils on jetbikes with rangers all the time, and win. :/ that is not fun considering i want to see dark eldar by itself win a major tournament like NOVA. Man i hope so. If not ill probably have with Chaos Daemons ( gotta love random fun stuff) Very Happy
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The PayneTrayn
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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 17:24

Heh. I've considered the Imotekh approach too. Think that's still a viable combo with our codex? Also: Anyone want to bet slaves on "LoW, HQ, or gone?" Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 17:35

I think that winning with Craftworld allies doesn't count.

That said, I will play games using (only) Craftworlders. Because they can still bring Harlequins. Mad

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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 17:37

I have no fluffy objection to DE and Eldar being allies. I'd love to have a competitive pure DE list but when I look at the 5e codex and see that it really struggles with AA and I regularly play against Cron Air, Astartes Stormwings, Helldrakes etc, if I don't bring AA then I may as well just hand my opponent the victory before the game begins. With the new codex I think we still have exactly the same problem with the added problem that our AT had been severely nerfed with the gutting of Wyches, removal of aerial assault from Ravagers, loss of flickerfields on everything except Venoms etc. I don't really think that a couple of suicide Hayscourge squads is going to cut the mustard.

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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 18:02

yep!

I chose DE because I like the models.

I also cannot accept DE and CE ever allying. it makes absolutely 0 sense to me.

It's disappointing that I believe the base DE new codex is built with allying eldar in mind- venoms and raiders in FA = banshees and firedragons alert.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 18:10

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I have no fluffy objection to DE and Eldar being allies. I'd love to have a competitive pure DE list but when I look at the 5e codex and see that it really struggles with AA and I regularly play against Cron Air, Astartes Stormwings, Helldrakes etc, if I don't bring AA then I may as well just hand my opponent the victory before the game begins. With the new codex I think we still have exactly the same problem with the added problem that our AT had been severely nerfed with the gutting of Wyches, removal of aerial assault from Ravagers, loss of flickerfields on everything except Venoms etc. I don't really think that a couple of suicide Hayscourge squads is going to cut the mustard.

Personally I always though of the Eldar as being very well equipped to kill off vehicles below AV 14 but are not that amazing against organic things while the Dark Eldar has the opposite feel for me.

I also find that our troops are never the most effective, and thus I really welcome the new codex allowing us to have 6 fast attack slots. It actually puts less tax upon my heavy support and allow me to take what I need.

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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 18:15

I agree, I always like to play "FLUFFY" armies with a thought up background, try to play and equip how they would act. That is probably why I take horrid codex nerfing as a n affront to my army and ability to play without having to do crap I dont want to, like allies. As for eldar allies, I will only take like wraithguard/blades, wraithlords, or maybe a wraithknight at most..that way they can be passed off as corrupted, wraithstones turned to evil use. Only others would be amaybe be pathfinders since according to the books these eldar have chosen to go make their own path.

Like my SOB, I may have to take some LOTD for a bit of hard hitting specialist shooting or ccw , costly points wise but fits with fluff..
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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 21:17

For me I will plan on some "Fluffy" Allies Like Scorpions+Incubi together with Karandras and Drazhar because those guys are totally drinking buddies.

Seriously though I love both units (and the fluff regarding their "transition") and I think that it could be justified that they are having their falling out but unite temporarily(one of those things where I can pick on my little brother but you can't type of things)
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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 21:26

I view the "battle brothers" status more of a "Well... they're family we don't normally talk to... but we'd certainly rather work with them than any of these... lesser... races..." sort of thing.

That said, I don't just plunk down shiny Craftworlders beside my dark kin. I convert the crap out of stuff, and either call it Corsairs, or a different DE unit, or whatever.

Although I did just write my first 1850 list of new goodness, and I didn't even stop to think about allies. I mostly like them for bigger games (like, big big) and that sort of thing.

In the end, it's part of the game. If you prefer not to use them, then by all means don't. I would never use allies with my Tyranids... that's just... awkward. But I do think it's a fun concept, if sometimes weird in its implementation.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 23:17

So, I've never liked elves in fantasy. Never. Always thought of them as sissy tree hippies stick in the muds. And to some extent that goes toward 40k Eldar. Yeah, they're not the same but it's a new incarnation and many traits are shared. However, that dislike has never went toward Dark Elves. There's always some fun with those guys, between political intrigue, and backstabbing etc etc. So, I do not want to include them. I'd rather use Orcs, or CSM. Hell I might even prefer Tau. For all intensive purposes though I'd rather not use allies at all.

Now should allies not be a thing? No. Space Marine chapters should be able to team up with imperial guard easily, it happens a lot in fluff. CSM and Daemons? No brainer. Even to a little lesser extent Eldar and Dark Eldar team up.

Here's the problem, and someone touched on it earlier when they mentioned a collectible card game. Now I used to play Magic the Gathering years back. Once when it was crazily unbalanced and again when they decided to actually strongly play test their stuff. Now the tournament scene in MTG is pretty cut throat not unlike 40k, and you have powerful combos that can win games, but in MTG I never played those. I always played a monochrome rogue deck. Rogue basically meaning it doesn' use any of the well known power combos. I usually had a lot of success even though one color does somewhat limit what you can do, but it also amplifies the thing you're trying to do. So if you're playing a burn deck you only play red, because you can put more burny stuff in. You also have other options in your color as well if you do enough play testing and searching. This works because with every magic release each color probably has 200-300 cards to pick from. Or in other words, OPTIONS.

This whole streamlining mess takes away options, meaning you're generally going to have to ally. And in our case bringing Eldar doesn't limit us in anyway. We're still just as fast, and actually have harder hitting stuff. In other words there's no reason to leave them out. You can make a black and red burn deck as both have damage dealing attacks and black gives you a few more control options. But staying pure red makes you better at your job. The way it looks to me, is that Eldar are pretty much better than us at everything we do. Leaving them out gives you no advantage while bringing them in gives you plenty. It's bad game design.

Edit: Come to think of it, isn't a Ravager now the same point cost as a Wave Serpent but far far worse? scratch

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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 23:59

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
The way it looks to me, is that Eldar are pretty much better than us at everything we do. Leaving them out gives you no advantage while bringing them in gives you plenty. It's bad game design.

Edit: Come to think of it, isn't a Ravager now the same point cost as a Wave Serpent but far far worse? scratch

This is a problem I constantly face. I write a pure DE list and then think "I could swap x unit for y unit from the Eldar codex and the army would be much stronger". Unfortunately, that applies to almost every unit which means, if I were looking at it purely from a list design perspective, I'm much better off just playing Eldar. But I collected a Dark Eldar army and I want to use it so I stick with it but bring in some Eldar allies to shore up the list.

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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Sat Oct 04 2014, 00:27

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:
The way it looks to me, is that Eldar are pretty much better than us at everything we do. Leaving them out gives you no advantage while bringing them in gives you plenty. It's bad game design.

Edit: Come to think of it, isn't a Ravager now the same point cost as a Wave Serpent but far far worse? scratch

This is a problem I constantly face. I write a pure DE list and then think "I could swap x unit for y unit from the Eldar codex and the army would be much stronger". Unfortunately, that applies to almost every unit which means, if I were looking at it purely from a list design perspective, I'm much better off just playing Eldar. But I collected a Dark Eldar army and I want to use it so I stick with it but bring in some Eldar allies to shore up the list.

And oddly enough, this new codex makes us a lot "tougher" than our kin, but a lot slower as well. They're also much shootier. I feel the dynamic and identity of the army has changed, which is sad. Not so much a glass cannon anymore than a fleshy mound of poison. The coven aspect of our army will compliment the eldar well, and eldar will compliment the coven aspects of the new codex. Especially the supplement.

Or in other words. You have wave serpents shooting and a wraith knight approaching from your front and then 4-10 grotesques deepstrike into your backfield. What do you shoot at? I don't think I could find an answer with a pure DEldar list. Especially since grotesques now benefit from no escape and can, with support, deepstrike without scatter.

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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Sat Oct 04 2014, 02:45

I'm considering Eldar allies lately, which is a change from my previous stance.

Reasoning is not for competitiveness or anything like that, it's really that I want to run a Kabal only army from here out and Eldar Aspect Warriors are reasonable models in looks and rules to be done up as variants on Kabalite troops.

I think it's absurd to think that ALL Kabalite forces are either "Kabalite Warrior" or "Kabalite Warrior with Wings". Eldar Aspects will let me use Aspect units to diversify the forces under my Archon's command.

I'm not decided on what I'll be using as this is more for the 1750-2000+ points range where I start having to replicate units to stick to Kabal only, but that's what I'm looking at.

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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Sat Oct 04 2014, 04:39

The ally matrix and GW listing DE and CWE as battle-brothers is one of the major reasons I stopped playing 40k when 6th edition came out (the other btw is that I moved and my new meta only had Warmachine/Hordes in it with zero Warhammer presence)

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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Sat Oct 04 2014, 06:01

I have always viewed it like Motley does in the DE path books, we are all the same race looking to survive with different methods in how to do so. So i am ok with allies as a whole and DE/CW:E in particular as DE will probably work for anyone for the right price or reason, "the harlequins asked us to and we dont want to piss those guys off", is Definitely a valid reason in my eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Sat Oct 04 2014, 07:38

Well I dont see any problems with CWE and DE being battle brothers. If anyone thinks that CWE are "good" in any way, wake up and read something... CWE and DE are different kinds of evil. There is no goodnes in W40K. And these two evils are as close as they get in their ultimate goals.

However, I am strongly against allying CWE despite the huuuuge advantages they can bring us. The reason is the arrogant DE mindset I am getting everytime I get to play my DE... we dont need them... they might need us, but we dont need them! :-)
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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Sat Oct 04 2014, 08:31

If you look at the new DE book and think they can't be competitive without allying Craftworld then you just need a bit more creativity. The tools are definitely there. Plus their models suck in comparison. My CWE come out when I want to play their book, and they get played on their own. No mixing of the races. That's how you get halfsies. Nobody likes a halfsie.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Eldar Allies ALL the time!   Sat Oct 04 2014, 09:34

I'm a big fan of allies. When I used to play IG, I had an idea to add in a few Dark Eldar coz they were awesome models. Now I have a full DE army, with Kabalites, Coven and Wych units.
I still use allies, whether they be Craftworld, CSM or my old IG. It's fun, adds a different layer to your games and gives you an opportunity to try different paint styles and aesthetics.
As to Craftworld and the Dark Kin allying, I remember reading something once along the lines of "You'd ask your worst enemy for help if a monkey was beating your brains out with a rock" Replace monkey with mon-keigh and you've got all the reason you need for the alliance. In my humble opinion.

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