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 CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!

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Sensei
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 06:27

From what I can tell, not having read the books yet, any Haemie (from regular force or Coven detach) will provide the benefit of increasing PfP to the unit they are attached to. The unit would benefit from the PfP rules associated to the detachment they were a part of.

Therefore, you could move a haemie deployed as part of a coven detachment into a unit from your regular CAD - the haemie would benefit from the alternate PfP rules found in the Coven detachment rules (as he was deployed as part of it) and the regular CAD unit would benefit from the normal PfP rules.

The animus vitae does the same I believe - increases PfP effects by 1 turn. So, if it casued a wound and granted that benefit, any units receiving the benefit would follow the rules for the detachment they were deployed with. You could have some benefiting from the normal PfP and some benefiting from the alternate Coven PfP.

The "allies" distinction is confusing to wrap your head around at first. Effectively, allies was from 6th edition in which you were only able to take units from an alternate force based on whether they could ally together or not. In 7th edition, "allies" are gone and instead you have battle-forged armies. Battle-forged armies mean every unit is organized into some form of a detachment. Any number and any type of detachment can be taken, with units from any army. However, once on the field, units from different codexes have restrictions on how they can be deployed/interact on the board based on the "allies" matrix.

Basically, in 6th, you could only use two units from different codexes based on what the authors said. In 7th, you can create an army with units from different codexes anytime you want with whatever units you want, but you might be restricted in deployment and movement. Now instead of Marines "allying" with tyranids which they could never do in 6th, you can deploy an army with a detachment of marines and a detachment of tyranids to fight against your tau opponent and "forge the narrative" saying that the marines are taking advantage of the chaos caused by the attacking tyranids to wipe out a new colony of tau.
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The PayneTrayn
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 06:38

If that is indeed the case...that would be fantastic. I see mixed armies being common, in order to get the Coven's fearless turn 1 on critical units. Might make wyches a tarpit unit again...assuming the Haemy doesn't die.

Thanks for the clarification!
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Sensei
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 06:44

No problem - Don't take anything I said for gospel truth - I don't have my rulebooks handy to reference so I'm going solely on memory, and I don't have the codex or supplement, just what people who got the books early have shared.

I agree with you though - I think for purely DE lists, the Coven detachment will be a very common sight with supporting units from a regular DE force.

Although I was a little underwhelmed with what the new codex brings (or rather deletes), I'm really liking the Coven supplement stuff so far.
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Mayk0l
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 06:46

So,if I get this right.. If I take a Dark Eldar main codex detachment with a coven formation from the supplement, my Kabalite Warriors have objective secure?

Will this also be true of I take a force with six FA?

Questions for Sky Serpent:
Are there any pictures in the book of Grotesque models other than the ones we already know?
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The PayneTrayn
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 06:47

I'm remaining cautiously optimistic until I have the codices and the FAQ comes out. Agreed, on both.
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Sensei
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 07:32

@Mayk0l wrote:
So,if I get this right.. If I take a Dark Eldar main codex detachment with a coven formation from the supplement, my Kabalite Warriors have objective secure?

Will this also be true of I take a force with six FA?

Questions for Sky Serpent:
Are there any pictures in the book of Grotesque models other than the ones we already know?

I think they would keep objective secured if kabalite warriors are taken in a Combined Arms Detachment. However that rule is conveyed to them from the detachment rules.

The 6 FA slot detachment is a Codex: Dark Eldar specific detachment. I don't think they will keep objective secured unless the detachment specifically states they do, but I can't confirm that one way or the other. I get my book tomorrow afternoon.

Honestly, I would be ok with losing objective secured on troops if it opens up a unique FOC detachment arrangement for us. I think the two detachments allowing for more FA or more Elites open up a lot of options, especially in combination with some of the formations now available. Realistically, it's looking like we are going to have fewer troops on the board now anyways.
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Mayk0l
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 07:46

Sensei, thanks for replying. You may be right, maybe the new FOC arrangements are worth losing objective secure. Objective Secure hasn't really come up in any of my games, not in a way that determined the game going one way or the other.
However, we do get 6 FA now. That is awesome. For all that has been said about this new Codex, in a lot of ways, details like that make the book so much fluffier.
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DingK
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 07:59

@Sensei

You can't take 3 Haemonculi per HQ slot anymore; the old, cheap Haemonculus is gone and we've only got the ancient left.
That said, your Coven detachment could probably split into a couple of formations, allowing you to include those triple Haemies again.

@Mayk0l wrote:

Questions for Sky Serpent:
Are there any pictures in the book of Grotesque models other than the ones we already know?

I've also got the supplement, I'll take this: No, it's just the breakdancing Finecast model we all know and love... And yes, it makes some of the photos in the book look absolutely ridiculous.


Last edited by DingK on Fri Oct 03 2014, 08:05; edited 1 time in total
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Garion
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 09:09

I think there is a lot of confusion about how detachments and formations works in the current edition

In a Battle Forged army, you have to organize your units in one or more detachments. You can use how many detachments you like, choosing them from the following list:

- the Combined Arms Detachment (CAD) from the main rulebook
- the Allied Detachment from the main rulebook
- any detachment presented in one of your Codex or Supplement
- any Formations presented in one of your Codex or Supplement

The last point is important: a Formation IS a detachment, so you can't include a Formation in another detachment

Detachments can give special rules to their units, and Objective Secured is only present in the CAD or Allied Detachment. So, technically, you don't loose Objective Secured if you use the DE detachment: you do not you ever had it

Also, the Allies Matrix is ALWAYS in effect, whether you use the Allied Detachment or not and regardless of how many detachment you use. Now units are allied with themselves following the matrix: this is the reason why every army is a Battle Brother of itself

So if you have units with the DE faction in one single Detachment they are BB with themselves. The same things goes if you have units with the DE faction in multiple detachments

The faction of an unit and the allies matrix is what it's important not the book from witch a unit or detachment came from

Regarding the two types of Power From Pain: we need to see the exact wording of the rule in the supplement. It could either replace the codex version for the whole army or be applied only to units included in detachments from the supplement. Or it could work only on Sunday from what we could tell right now ...



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Sensei
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 09:43

@DingK wrote:
@Sensei

You can't take 3 Haemonculi per HQ slot anymore; the old, cheap Haemonculus is gone and we've only got the ancient left.
That said, your Coven detachment could probably split into a couple of formations, allowing you to include those triple Haemies again.

@Mayk0l wrote:

Questions for Sky Serpent:
Are there any pictures in the book of Grotesque models other than the ones we already know?

I've also got the supplement, I'll take this: No, it's just the breakdancing Finecast model we all know and love... And yes, it makes some of the photos in the book look absolutely ridiculous.

I'm aware....I don't think I said we can take 3 per HQ slot. But with unique FOC slots, I'm anticipating saving points on troops and moving them to HQ/FA/Elites. With the Coven Supplement Detachment combined with a DE Codex Supplement, we have 6 HQs, 6 FA and 6 Elite slots available.


@Garion wrote:
I think there is a lot of confusion about how detachments and formations works in the current edition

In a Battle Forged army, you have to organize your units in one or more detachments. You can use how many detachments you like, choosing them from the following list:

- the Combined Arms Detachment (CAD) from the main rulebook
- the Allied Detachment from the main rulebook
- any detachment presented in one of your Codex or Supplement
- any Formations presented in one of your Codex or Supplement

The last point is important: a Formation IS a detachment, so you can't include a Formation in another detachment

Detachments can give special rules to their units, and Objective Secured is only present in the CAD or Allied Detachment. So, technically, you don't loose Objective Secured if you use the DE detachment: you do not you ever had it

Also, the Allies Matrix is ALWAYS in effect, whether you use the Allied Detachment or not and regardless of how many detachment you use. Now units are allied with themselves following the matrix: this is the reason why every army is a Battle Brother of itself

So if you have units with the DE faction in one single Detachment they are BB with themselves. The same things goes if you have units with the DE faction in multiple detachments

The faction of an unit and the allies matrix is what it's important not the book from witch a unit or detachment came from

Regarding the two types of Power From Pain: we need to see the exact wording of the rule in the supplement. It could either replace the codex version for the whole army or be applied only to units included in detachments from the supplement. Or it could work only on Sunday from what we could tell right now ...



I agree - formations are a special type of detachment and can't be included within a detachment themselves. While detachment tend to alter FOC arrangement, Formations seem to alter unit composition - either extending the number of models in a unit (5 talos) or combining models not normally allowed together (Talos/chronos/haemie).As far as I know, I don't think a formation can be taken as your Primary detachment with your warlord either, but I might be wrong on that.

As far as the Allies matrix, yes it is always in effect, but for simplicity's sake, it doesn't have any affect on models from the same faction - ie Dark Eldar Coven Detachment combined with a regular Dark Eldar CAD.

That's basically what I was saying above - the "Allied Detachment" has nothing to do with allies; it is just the name given to an FOC configuration available to all factions. The Allies matrix has nothing to do with detachments and what units can be included in an army and is completely about how models/units from different factions interact on the board rather than in list building like the allies used to work in 6th.
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Garion
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 10:08

You can build a Battle Forged army using only Formations (as they are detachments) and there is no detachment related restriction on how you choose your Warlord. You don't take a detachment (or formation) as a primary detachment in the first place: it's the Warlord ' detachment (or formation) that automatically become the Primary Detachment

So yes, you could add for example the "Urien + 2 Grots units" formation to your army and chose Urien as your Warlord. Then that formation become your Primary Detachment

And I'm starting to think that it would be a good idea to do so Very Happy

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MarcoAvrelis
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 10:41

So I could take a RSR-Detachment (realspace raiders) with a Chronos-talos-heami (CTH)-formation?

Big question is, How will PFP affect them? Do they use separate PFP Lists?
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 10:51

Yes, you could make a 2-detachments army using one realspace raider detachment and one formation from the coven supplement

What you could not do is using a formation as an unit of the realspace raider detachment (or any other detachment)

How PFP works depend on the exact wording of the rule in the supplement. It could replace the main codex rule or work only on the Coven detachments/formations. Or nothing of the above..



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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 11:14

The spirit probe on the chronos grants: "the model and all friendly units with both the dark eldar faction and feel no pain special rule within 6" of one or more models with a spirit prove, receive a +1 bonus to their feel no pain"...cumulative, can't be better than 4+...

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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 11:18

From the book, right at the start of the Haemonculus Covens Special Rules:

"If you use the Formations or the Covenite Coterie Detachment in this book, the following supplemental special rules apply to all the units they contain."

In other words, Kabalite Warriors in a CAD will use the standard PfP table. In fact, if your CAD includes Wracks, they will too, even though there might be Wracks from a Coven formation using the Supplement table.
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 11:25

@DingK: thank you!

So each book keep is PfP. Good to know!

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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 12:16

I've got the Coven Supplement as well and it is awesome!!!

I worked out if you take the Haemy, Talos, Cronos Formation, slap on the Haemy Relics (one of which Lady Malys pinched from the imperial forge planet in 5th edition dex with the 'help' of orks ) on the Haemy + WWP and Spirit Probe and you'll have a super tough unit!

1 Relic gives Haemy 3+ feel no pain (cronos makes his base FNP 4+ then 35pt one adds plus one), It also completely stops the first ID wound on him but you lose the +1 for the rest of the game. Then the other gives him 4+ it will not die. Add his Warlord trait of talos' and cronos' reroll ones on FNP then you have a super beefy unit that won't scatter when it arrives!

Unlike Regular DE relics you are not limited to only one on you haemy.

It is super awesome!

Sample

Formation (forgot the name  geek )

Haemonculous, FG, Both Relics, WWP
Talos, Ichor Injector, Flails
Cronos, Probe

465pts
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 12:38

Does the supplement come out for pre-order tomorrow?
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 13:17

@Garion wrote:


What you could not do is using a formation as an unit of the realspace raider detachment (or any other detachment)




but cant you just take as many detachments as you want, points permitting?

Cant get my head around the rules Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 13:18

@DingK wrote:
From the book, right at the start of the Haemonculus Covens Special Rules:

"If you use the Formations or the Covenite Coterie Detachment...

Ugh. A coven is already a coterie. Why not 'Covenite Coterie Association Club Gang Small Circle of Friends Detachment'?
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 13:20

@notts wrote:
@Garion wrote:


What you could not do is using a formation as an unit of the realspace raider detachment (or any other detachment)




but cant you just take as many detachments as you want, points permitting?

Cant get my head around the rules Embarassed


Yes, you can take as many detachments as you like

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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 13:23

But people commonly impose some restrictions?

I've seen "2 sources" bandied about a lot?
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 13:25

The Coven supplement sounds great!!! I'll need a copy. ASAP.

"My friends in the shadows, bring it to me"....
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 13:29

@notts wrote:
But people commonly impose some restrictions?

I've seen "2 sources" bandied about a lot?

I guess it varies from gaming group to gaming group. In mine we have no such restrictions

I've seen some tournaments imposing said limit, but that's on source books not on detachments. They allow you to take stuff from 2 codex/supplements only (so say, from DE and Eldar but not from DE, Eldar AND Imperial Knights) but you can take as many detachments as you like (say, 2 from DE and 1 from Eldar)

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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 13:30

I can see myself wanting a couple of formations from coven, with a backbone of plain deldar.
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