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 CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Thu Oct 02 2014, 20:27

My fledgling grey knight army is going to love the avalanche of army jumpers who will be playing dark eldar covens (activate force weapons!)... That stuff all looks brutal, definitely going to be some power combos with the new dark eldar books, can't wait!

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Thu Oct 02 2014, 21:13

I'm thinking about taking formation 1 sticking a sucubuss in the second squad of grotz and wwp deep striking both of them... maybe an archon with a court wwp deep striking too? shred is a little worthless though considering they have 4+ poison and S5..

EDIT: Wait!!! can the heamy in formation 5 take a WWP??????? if so the foot slogging problem they have is over!
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Izaeus
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Thu Oct 02 2014, 21:51

Can you take these formations outside apocalypse or are they apoc only?
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Thu Oct 02 2014, 21:56

you can take these formations in regular 40k.

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Vael Galizur
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Thu Oct 02 2014, 22:14

Interesting... They take away the ability of Haemonculi to take Wracks as troops and then also take away the need to have troops at all. Not only does that mean that the Wracks are essentially troops, but also that Grotesques can be troops as well. I'll take it.

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Mayk0l
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Thu Oct 02 2014, 22:50

Subtle to keep Wracks as elites not troops, makes scoring objectives a bit harder doesn't it?
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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Thu Oct 02 2014, 23:00

I have the Coven supplement.

Ask me anything.

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Thu Oct 02 2014, 23:04

@Sky Serpent wrote:
I have the Coven supplement.

Ask me anything.

Can the heamy in formation 5 take a WWP??
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Vael Galizur
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Thu Oct 02 2014, 23:08

@Mayk0l wrote:
Subtle to keep Wracks as elites not troops, makes scoring objectives a bit harder doesn't it?

Oh, very good point. I wasn't even thinking about scoring purposes. Maybe they are trying to encourage Coven armies to win from straight kills, rather than objectives? While super durable coven units would be great for holding objectives, it makes sense that they'd be more interested in murder.

*EDIT*
Though, frankly the same could easily be said for all Dark Eldar. lol

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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Thu Oct 02 2014, 23:14

@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
@Sky Serpent wrote:
I have the Coven supplement.

Ask me anything.

Can the heamy in formation 5 take a WWP??

Yes.

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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Thu Oct 02 2014, 23:19

OH. MY. GLOB.

All of this sounds amazing, I cannot wait to try this out. Scouting Pain Engines? Re-rolls all over the place? Tough AND hard hitting? I will be having a lot of fun with the new regular codex, but this supplement is going on my bookshelf in a couple of months time! I thought they'd do some good stuff with it, but this sounds better than I could have hoped...

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Thu Oct 02 2014, 23:21

@Sky Serpent wrote:
@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
@Sky Serpent wrote:
I have the Coven supplement.

Ask me anything.

Can the heamy in formation 5 take a WWP??

Yes.

BAHAH!!! say hello to deepstriking chronos!! This lets you get FNP 4+ anywhere you want it on the field! that's HUGE!! Deepstriking it next to a court-bomb or grot-bomb= profit!!!
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Sensei
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 01:27

This supplement sounds awesome. A lot of really cool things to try out. Kind of annoyed they left scourges out of the coven formation though...

As far as using these formation/detachment with the regular codex, 7th allows any number of detachments (formations are a special form of detachment). So we won't even need to take an allied detachment from regular codex.

I'm thinking the 6 FA slot detachment with scourges and reavers along with a little kabalite support fire will work really well with the coven detachment. Send in the reavers and scourges to take care of armour and soften up some hard targets and use the hard hitting coven units to mop up. Kabalites to protect flanks and provide firepower to weaken units before a coven charge.

The list I'm considering right now:
CAD
Archon WWP + court
Succubus WWP + court

Troops
Warriors in venom
Warriors in venom

Fast Attack

3 x units of scourge
3 x units of reavers

Coven Detachment
HQ - 3 x haemies

Elites

3 x units of wracks in venoms
3 x units of grots each with a haemie and WWP

And just for fun - throw in formation 5 - Talos/chronos/haemie with WWP

With some tweaking I think a list like this could be done in roughly 2500 points, won't know till I get my copy and can check numbers for sure. Thats a lot of no scatter high S/T deep striking, on top of the fast moving reavers/scourge and the mobile firepower from the kabalite venoms.
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 01:49

@Sensei I'd swap a couple of units of Reavers for Razorwings, the list lacks AA somewhat. Maybe swap at least one, just so you have some presence in the air. Or find room for a Voidraven Smile

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ligolski
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 01:50

I'm totally on board with that formation 5...might need to run two of those formations. And support with other elements...muhahaha...much like Sensei just suggested. Probably going to use coven formations and support with other elements from the main dex like reavers/scourges and good ole dakka boats and grots. I'm really curious on the points cost and what I can get away with for say 1850.

Ideally, I'd also throw in my razorwing and future voidraven for some AI via blasts and heavier AT/AA.

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Sensei
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 02:17

Good point about the AA. There's room in there to move things around and play with points to get some though.

There are some really interesting support options opened up with the altered FOCs for the regular codex and now the coven supplement.

Let's hope one is in the works to bring wyches back on board... I wouldn't hold my breath though. When the nid dex dropped everyone was disappointed in genestealers and lictors and thought they were holding off on the good stuff for the supplements. The supplements didn't really do much for them.

I'm interested in trying out formation 2 as well - precision strikes on all wracks? Give the Haemie a WWp, drop one of the wrack units in beside your opponents deathstar. Liquify, charge and then challenge with your haemie - he will probably die, gaining you extra VPs, then once the challenge is over direct all precision strikes at the HQ - you get points for killing the opponents warlord AND for losing yours. It's a suicide unit, but it looks like it could work because it gains you points and has the means to deliver and then take out the opposing warlord. Stick the second precision striking wrack unit in a venom or raider and send them around the board taking out specialized weapons or characters.
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average joe
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 03:19

Domo arigato sensei and myrvn.
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fioater
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 04:00

How would you use a Coven list as allies?

For instance Eldar Primary, Coven Secondary.

It's my understanding that you need 1 HQ, 1 TROOP minimum for allies, but Coven have no Troops? I'm a little rusty on 7ed as I haven't played many games yet, so might be mistaken on how it works.

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Sensei
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 04:19

Allied Detachment is completely different from the Coven detachment.

As far as I can tell, you could take a Primary Detachment of Eldar (be it CAD or a special Eldar detachment), and any other detachment as support.

In 7th, a battle-forged army only requires that your units are organized into detachments. Detachments are just FOC variations, but any number of detachments can be taken in a battle-forged army in 7th.

So, if you have your Primary detachment with your warlord as an Eldar army organized into a CAD, you could take any other detachment with any other units (so another CAD, Coven, Assassin, or any other formation/detachment you have the models for). As long as all the models are organized into a detachment, they are legal in a battle-forged army.

The Allied Detachment is just one of the possible outlines for taking your second detachment. However if you wanted to take the Coven Detachment, I believe you could using it's unit selection restrictions.

Units on the board interact based on the Allies Matrix. Therefore an Eldar force with a supporting Coven Detachment would function as Battle Brothers (?? I can't remember Eldar/DE allied state off hand). However, a space marine army (or any army for that matter...) could technically take a Coven Detachment, however the individual units would be required to follow the allies restrictions.

There is nothing I can see that requires you to only take an Allied Detachment if you're using units from another codex.
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 04:47

Yup - it's a different detachment - nothing about the allies rules applies apart from the level of alliance

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The PayneTrayn
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 05:11

One of my big questions is if you ally main DE with the Coven supplement, how will a Chronos from one army interact with the other? For that matter, allying a Coven Haemy with standard DE. How does PFP interact, if at all? Or the Animus Vitae?
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 05:28

They aren't allied.

"Allies" only applies to how models from different codexes interact with each other. The "Allied Detachment" is just another form of FOC configuration, but is usable with any codex. The CAD and Allied Detachment is usable with units from any codex. The Coven Detachment is usable with only the units listed in its list of units allowed to be taken in its slots.

ANY army can use ANY detachment. The only time the allied matrix comes into play is when units from different codexes are use. If this is the case, the units, NOT the detachments, interact as listed in the matrix.

Therefore if you have your primary detachment of Dark Eldar and also take a Coven Detachment, nothing happens. There is no restriction, because they are not "allied" and there are no "allies matrix" restrictions between dark eldar and dark eldar. If a space marine player decided to field a Coven Detachment, they would be required to deploy all space marines/coven units 12 inches away from each other and also follow the rules for "come the apocalypse/desparate allies"

To answer your question - because there are no "allies matrix" restrictions, two chronos in different detachments would still affect each other in exactly the same way - I believe counting the PfP turn as one higher if within 6 inches. Now it appears if one of those Chronos was from the Coven detachment and one was from a regular CAD, the benefits gained from PfP would be different with one gaining the base PfP rules and the one from the Coven detachment gaining the alternate Coven PfP rules.


Last edited by Sensei on Fri Oct 03 2014, 05:35; edited 1 time in total
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The PayneTrayn
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 05:33

So there'd be no sharing of independent characters? That doesn't seem right.
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 05:52

@The PayneTrayn wrote:
So there'd be no sharing of independent characters? That doesn't seem right.

I'm not sure where you are drawing that conclusion from.

Independent characters can leave/join friendly units. Friendly units can be in different detachments. As far as I know, there is nothing stopping the haemie being deployed with a unit of warriors as part of your CAD and then moving to join a unit of wracks that was deployed as part of the Coven detachment.

What you are not able to do is deploy a haemie with dark eldar and then move it to join a unit of space marines because there are "allies" restrictions between units from Codex Dark Eldar and Codex Space Marines. However, a haemie CAN join a unit from Codex Eldar, although this wouldn't accomplish much as it seems most of the benefits granted by a haemie are based on the special rule PfP and normal Eldar do not have this rule.

Detachment =/= allies. You are stuck thinking the way allies were defined in 6th. That is out the window. In 7th, there really isn't such a thing as "allies". Battle forged armies need to be organized into detachments. Detachments are groups of FOC configurations. The ONLY time the "allies matrix" is consulted is when dealing with units from different codexes. Units from different codexes cannot be deployed in the same detachment, but there is nothing stopping anyone from using models/units from ANY codex as long as it is deployed as part of a detachment (this is assuming a battle forged army). The two easiest and most universal "Detachments" are the Combined Arms Detachment and the Allied Detachment. The Allied detachment has nothing to do with actual allies, it's just an FOC configuration that allows units from any codex. If you're only wanting to take specific units from a codex other than your main detachment, the "Allied Detachment" has fewer points in required FOC slots than a second CAD.
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The PayneTrayn
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PostSubject: Re: CONFIRMED: Covens Supplement Details!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 06:05

It was the "not allied part". I'm haven't played much of 7th; I'm still getting used the detachment/ally distinction.

I was thinking of running pure DE, using both the Coven supplement and the main codex. The question I had initially asked was "how does a Haemy from the Coven supplement interact with a main DE unit? Do they get both their PFP increased, or only the PFP specific to the Haemy's codex"? Same goes the Animus Vitae; do both forces increase their PFP, or only the one with the AV.
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