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 Wyches, a fond farewell

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Thu Oct 02 2014, 11:31

I guess we will have to keep our melee units in reserve so they can deepstrike round 2 in their jinking raiders and charge in round 3 (where they should have FnP and with the any luck the cointoss Speculum also provides Furious charge) while the rest of the army tries to get not tabled till they arrive and give fire support. MAybe you could even try to run 3 Chronos forwards to provide that extra +1 FnP to your melee units.

Seems like a bad one trick pony to me Sad
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Thu Oct 02 2014, 11:36

Well you can still keep raiders full of wyches in reserve, and they don't have to come on by deep strike.

By the time they hit the battleline, they should be boosted up and able to shove units off objectives (ok, not all units, but quite a few). Bloodbrides would be even better with the extra attack.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Thu Oct 02 2014, 11:46

If they are on the table they can charge at turn 2 in most cases. The difference between Deepstriking and coming from the table edge is not that big but deepstriking has its benefits if your ride gets glanced to death.
12" + 18" TB (you need to jink anyways) and next turn 6" + 6" + 2d6" (with rerolls) thats on average 49" should be more than enough to strike anywhere on the table... you are just not prepared to do so as your FnP is just 6+ and your Chronoi just crept up 19" on average (25" with aura range) and are hardly in range to provide their bonus.
The moment they leave their raider, they better get all the survivability they can have or they just got thrown away.

The Rush you proposed could be done by Wracks as they bring FnP and T4 to the table and also get better special weapons and poisoned melee weapons.
By turn 3 or 4 Wyches seem to outscale the Wracks though (even without Drugs factored in)
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John M
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Thu Oct 02 2014, 11:49

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Thu Oct 02 2014, 12:02

by keeping them in reserve though you achieve several imporovements.
Turn 1 - they can't be targeted because they're not on the table.
Turn 2 - You units that do start on the table have the chance to do some damage to reduce incoming fire once the wyches arrive (I'm working on the presumption that if you're reserving a lot you'll have some way of manipulating reserves such as a comms relay). Those units are inevitably going to be higher priority than the wyches who can't hurt them for at least one more turn. Faced with a court putting out AP3 templates and majority S5 T5 in my face, or a boat full of wyches than can't attack me next turn, I know what I'd be shooting at.
Turn 3 - You have FNP5+, depending on your drugs you could charge now, or put it off for another turn to get furious charge. Those units that started on the board or dropped in close are still more of a priority target because they're hurting your opponent right now.
Turn 4 - Charge. Or if your advance units are still holding up then by all means wait till turn 5 when you'll also have rage.

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Cavalier
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Thu Oct 02 2014, 12:07

I've been thinking a lot about Wyches ever since the news broke that they are not getting their dodge save against overwatch, and the nerf to their weapons. I think GW is trying to force to use an overwatch absorption unit (Grots) to go in first take the heat and then let the elite lightly armored CC units go in second. I think this could be particularly useful if you multi-assault with Grots, or Wracks, have them take the damage and then let your multiple units of Wyches move in after on the squads already swamped by Grots. I think the same philosophy applies with CW Eldar with Wraithblades (which rock) and units like Banshees and Storm Guardians. The question is.... is this even worth it?

During most of 6th I forwent assault units entirely (which sucked because thats why I started DE in the first place) but for the first time last weekend I used my Wraithblades and it was so refreshing and useful. Just the impact of tying up a dangerous enemy unit alone was worth its weight in gold.

So anyway I think Wyches can work but they are gonna need a buddy unit and the Grotesques seem to fit the bill perfectly. But only time will tell if its gonna be efficient enough to make it worth it.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Thu Oct 02 2014, 12:19

Quote :
by keeping them in reserve though you achieve several imporovements.

I have never suggested keeping them not in reserve...
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Thu Oct 02 2014, 12:50

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
by keeping them in reserve though you achieve several imporovements.

I have never suggested keeping them not in reserve...

Sorry, must have misinterpreted when you said 'if they are on the table they can charge turn 2'

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Thu Oct 02 2014, 13:08

Reavers are the perfect support unit for providing screens (5+ cover against overwatch) or tanking overwatch with 3+ jink and T4 (T5 with +1 T from drugs). They are also dirt cheap, I see reavers and wyches supporting each other nicely. Not to mention with the WWP not having any scatter you can land wyches in perfect positions (potentially out of sight).

I think with decent threat saturation, use of reserves and timing attacks, wyches/reavers could have potential.

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Plague
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Thu Oct 02 2014, 13:37

I actually had something very similar happen against space marines. Sent the 5 wyches zooming across the board with their haywire grenades at the ready. Unfortunately their venom was blown up and 4 of them died a horrible death. The last wyche wasn't ready to die though, as she preceded to take out a few rhinos (with the the help of some timely 6's). Needless to say after the second one she met her fate and died like the rest of the squad, but it was funny that the opponent decided to ignore the lone wyche that remained. Apparently he didn't see her as much of a threat until she took out two rhinos by herself.

Fare thee well Wyches, the 40+ of you will be collecting dust for years to come!

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Thu Oct 02 2014, 15:37

@Mushkilla wrote:
Reavers are the perfect support unit for providing screens (5+ cover against overwatch) or tanking overwatch with 3+ jink and T4 (T5 with +1 T from drugs). They are also dirt cheap, I see reavers and wyches supporting each other nicely. Not to mention with the WWP not having any scatter you can land wyches in perfect positions (potentially out of sight).

I think with decent threat saturation, use of reserves and timing attacks, wyches/reavers could have potential.

I think I will come down to holding out on assaulting with wyches till they have Fnp and FC.. they still won't be great but they will still kill things.
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Bleaksoul Brethren
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Thu Oct 02 2014, 17:04

My glorious wych story. A 5 man squad charged a stormlord with 20 marines in it 3 turns in a row and the squad didnt completely die to overwatch any of those times.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Fri Oct 03 2014, 09:11

Well I'm with the not-yet-gone side. First of, WW dropped in points, it think it's half the usual and last I read from scorpion they where all AP5 which is nice. Not rally good but nice.
But I also think that you have to support your troops. Breast could also be a good support troop. Take 3 times 5 kymers and they can open up any combat you would like and soak up overwatch.
And I think overall, they have gotten better, If you do not count there AT roll.

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Mayk0l
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Fri Oct 03 2014, 09:21

Bah!
I just finished converting and painting a whole unit using bitz from the Wych box and a lot of bitz from the Dark Elf Witches box. Kind of a let down!
I also custom built them a Wych Raider.
When they took away Harlequins I thought 'there goes my best painted unit, but at least I have my Wyches'. Hah..

And to think, right now I'm painting a Ravager, almost finished.
The irony.

Ahwell,
Time to paint some Scourges!
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Panic_Puppet
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Fri Oct 03 2014, 09:24

My very last game of the current codex, I was determined to give them one final moment of glory, so I parked their raider within striking distance of the hated Wave Serpent and prepared to attack next turn.

Then the wraithguard disembarked.

With D-Scythes.

Near the open-topped vehicle.

On the bright side, at least the raider survived the ensuing shooting phase. And spent the rest of the game carrying corpses around.

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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Fri Oct 03 2014, 10:40

@Barking Agatha wrote:

Ha! Now you claim to care about our cults, when but a short while ago you were utterly callous to our plight. I name thee false, o Archon, I name thee devious! Commendable, of course, well done!

Seriously though, Mr. B., I don't doubt your enthusiasm for Wyches, but with only one squad that you recently got at a discount and haven't quite finished yet, it doesn't sound as if you have a lot invested in them. Sorry!

Actually, the discounted squad, if I get them, will be my third Wink I still plan on trying wyches as a squad of nine or ten in a Raider, storming out and laying into something. They were always supposed to be a tarpit, so that's not really changed. Not being able to take haywire on them just saves 20 points on the unit for me. The budget squad will be painted up as Bloodbrides most likely, wanted to try them for a while this edition, and I have plenty of spare wych weapons to equip them. They came to shred!

I can't remember exactly what I said in that other thread, something about fears being allayed. I didn't fear wyches losing haywire, as it was an inevitability, however unfortunate that is. I did think they'd get to dodge against overwatch though. That's just a weird move on the part of GW. But I'll still be running them!

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Fri Oct 03 2014, 12:46

Right, sorry. Don't take me too seriously, I just really like wyches. Smile
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Fri Oct 03 2014, 12:47

@Barking Agatha wrote:
Right, sorry. Don't take me too seriously, I just really like wyches. Smile

It comes across Wink

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Fri Oct 03 2014, 12:53

@Mr Believer wrote:
@Barking Agatha wrote:
Right, sorry. Don't take me too seriously, I just really like wyches. Smile

It comes across Wink

The models are great. I'm sorely tempted to use some to convert up a running kabalite warrior squad though now!

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Fri Oct 03 2014, 13:06

Hm, I never used wyches, since I don't like that gladiator background, but I somewhat feel sorry for them.
They were good units and I almost convinced myself, to buy some. Well, farewell wyches...

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Sun Oct 05 2014, 01:55

I wonder how the discussion at GW went?

GW Designer: "Ok, what's the next unit to fix?"
GW Intern: "Looks like Wyches. Should be simple, just say their dodge applies to the whole assault phase, that fixes those annoying ambiguities -"
Designer: "Are you mad?! If we did that they'd be able to dodge Overwatch!"
Intern: "Well, they do suffer severely from Overwatch..."
Designer: "Of course they do! You can't dodge a flamer, boy!"
Intern: "Unless you are an imperial assassin?"
Designer: "You can't just go giving imperial rules to xenos, you young scallywag! Now, let's say they can dodge in the fight sub phase. Oh, and get rid of those haywire grenades. Can't have them a blowing up vehicles willy-nilly like they have been! Why, just last week I heard they..."
Intern: "... yes?"
Designer: "... destroyed a Land Raider!"
<beat>
Intern: "So?"
Designer: "So we should make sure they only get used to attack infantry, of course! No haywire. Ok, job done!"
Intern: "Should we give them a points break?"
Designer: "Good heavens man, why would we do that?"
Intern: "Because they are a combat unit that can't get into combat?"
Designer: "Oh dear boy, there are plenty of ways to get them into combat."
Intern: "No, I mean against a competent opponent."
Designer: "Oh, there are special tactical ways. I wouldn't expect you to understand..."
Intern: "You mean like how pinned troops can't fire overwatch!"
Designer: "Yes, yes, stuff like that. That reminds me. How many pinning weapons are there in this codex?"
Intern: "I don't know, four or five?"
Designer: "Get rid of them."
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Sun Oct 05 2014, 04:17

I don't even get what the fuss is about.

Wyches are in better shape than Bloodbrides Very Happy

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LeonDeclis
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Sun Oct 05 2014, 04:39

In my last game before this new Codex, a unit of Wyches took out a Land Raider and then went toe-to-toe with 15 Blood Claws before the Hekatrix flayed them all with her Agoniser over 4 turns. Thanks to Objective Secured, she won me the Secure Objective 3 times in that game alone. Both her and her last surviving Wyche then went on to get me Linebreaker.

I remember my first game with them as well.

They jumped out of a Webway Poral, led by Lelith. They looked around. They murdered a unit of Terminators.

Just wonderful.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Sun Oct 05 2014, 07:32

@Thor665 wrote:
I don't even get what the fuss is about.

Wyches are in better shape than Bloodbrides Very Happy

Which is sad, I have a tale about a succubus with a coterie of bloodbrides that took out a space marine biker captain and his bikers with all power weapons. He was pretty miffed about that one.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches, a fond farewell   Sun Oct 05 2014, 07:49

Goodbye my pretties.

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