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notts
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 12:56

Well, as I said earlier, I think they nerfed the things people did use, and havent buffed the things we didn't.

a 3 point drop for a hellion, still worse than an ork stormboy which is still 4 pts cheaper.

The only thing I've seen thats a categoric buff is 4 weapons for scourges, and razorwings to FA.
PfP might be better but im not convinced.
vehicle upgrades might be better but i'm not convinced (too much ignores cover, stops working once immobilsed.)


Waiting to see if the points drop and other things we havent had rumours for compensate!


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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 13:08

@Massaen wrote:
You have to out move the hell drake - now it's got a sore neck it's much easier to hide from its flamer

Easy to outmove "the" Heldrake.
Much harder with 3 of them, a flying Nurgle Prince, 3 Maulerfiends and around 60 Cultists.
Also even harder when the chickens drop to hover mode next turn. Yes, they are easier to hit now but they still spot AV12, 5++ and IWND
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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 13:18

@Mr Believer wrote:
I think part of the problem with the way the rumours are being perceived is that many people are looking at the things they used to use all the time and deciding it's a nerf overall because some of that stuff is worse. Time will tell, but I don't think we're going to be the worst book.

I am with you there. That is why i do not think that the taloi are just nerft. Sure, no more W6+1 attacks but with the add. CCW he is charging with 5 attacks. That is not bad. But what he got is mates, which is always nice in a crule world like 40k, and fnp from the start. Bufft with a croni its 4+. A 3+/4+ T7 MC ist really not bad.

But point costs will really make or break the release. Yeah and Inccubi and the missing(hopefully not) grenades...

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 13:38

From what I heard is Talos went up to 120 points naked.
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 13:46

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
From what I heard is Talos went up to 120 points naked.

I'm not having him running around in the nip, that's just rude. I'll pay extra points for a snappy suit or something Wink

In all seriousness, I'm waiting to see what happens with the Cronos, after building my pain engine as a Talos and deciding that was the wrong decision for me personally. If that's only gone up a little bit, I'll be tempted to run one if it's retained that buffing role.
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notts
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 13:52

This is what confuses me about gw.

Why would talos deserve a nerf? They've got less good and more expensive.

Inless they can deep strike.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 15:09

I think there are some really good ways of building a list if these rumours are true, court of the archon became awesome, AP3 flame templates from medusae, backed up by several Sslyth shardcarbines, and T5 against shooting with an archon in there if they get charged? I'm buying more of them definitely.

Talos to my mind have two roles - first, giving me a board presence on Turn 1, and second, twin linked haywire blasters for stripping hull points.

If the rumours about scourges are true, then they became pretty good AT too, or they could pump out 42 poison shots while arriving by deep strike without scattering if they deploy via wwp.

Overall, deep strike I think just became out best friend - it keeps our units off the board on turn 1, so when they arrive PfP is already ramping up, and they're completely untouched and firing at full effect (deep striking transports only count as moving at combat speed in 7th don't forget).

Also, imagine a pair of razrowing jets and a voidraven all turning up on the same turn, up to twelve missiles, or 6 lances or any combination of the above, plus the bomb. I think we just became Mr Alpha Strike (on turn 2...).

And no, I hadn't forgotten reserves, but I'd happily take a bastion or ADL with comms relay and argue my pre-raid strike had captured it!

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Hijallo
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 16:27

Two-handed is just two-handed. You don't get second attack for pistol/another knife in your left hand, that's all. No penalties for initiative.
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Archon Rievect
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 19:06

Well if all the nerfs are true then  i may as well take most of my army, throw lighter fluid on it and burn it.....  The codex sounds ....... HORRIBLE....!!!!!!!!

Please don't try and get around the swear filter. Thanks, Gob.

Talos up to 120 from 100, D6 Attacks GONE and whatever else,probably points up on any weapons!? -EFFIN HELL

HWG GONE from wyches and basically bloodbrides- gimme a frikkin break!!!

FlickerFields gone from Raiders and Ravagers(?)- REALLY

Archon nerfed, vehicle upgrades nerfed, weapons nerfed, bomber just comes out and is nerfed-armor really blows(All other armies flyers laugh at the RW,VR)+ no vector dance...

God knows what else I missed in the posts.....

Why the hell keep playing, supposed to be a fun game not some frikkin sort of 'Self S/M-although the DE basically are all about that)

SOMEONE GIVE ME A LINK please to who is the best person to yell at, hell give me all their emails if you have them- I want to yell at GW for having NO BRAINS AND CONCEPT of how they screw up codexes and armies..........

Finally--- HOW would these messed up changes affect vehicles such as the Tantalus and Reaper!? BOTH of which I own a couple of AND NOW they may be worthless to use or their issues wargear or options are blown out of the water...... Why blows $100's of dollars on models that are now effin worthless-maybe- in the game.....

I think GW is getting close to being called hostile towards its customer base, no wonder they are going down the toilet.......
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 19:28

@Archon Rievect wrote:


Finally--- HOW would these messed up changes affect vehicles such as the Tantalus and Reaper!? BOTH of which I own a couple of AND NOW they may be worthless to use or their issues wargear or options are blown out of the water...... Why blows $100's of dollars on models that are now effin worthless-maybe- in the game.....

The people who write the rulebook and the codexes are not the same people who write the rules for Forge World and their vehicles - it's not their responsibility to balance and update these models, that aren't part of the core set or supplements. Expect updates for them soon after the codex drops, Forge World are pretty good at updating stuff speedily.

I'm still optimistic, personally. They will always nerf and improve stuff book by book. Let's all wait and see how the book plays before we sell all our stuff. Or burn it. Wink
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Gobsmakked
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 19:37

@Mr Believer wrote:
I'm still optimistic, personally. They will always nerf and improve stuff book by book. Let's all wait and see how the book plays before we sell all our stuff. Or burn it. Wink

I am, too. I want to see the whole thing and how it all interacts together before I say anything either way.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 19:47

It won't be that bad. Overall, I think it will be actually easier to win with Dark Eldar now... just not necessarily with the Dark Eldar that you want Sad We already have Wyches, so Wyches are made... less good, but most of us don't have a lot of Wracks, for example. Time to go out and get more, because they've been made... gooder. And unbelievably, Mandrakes sound rather good now. Do you have more than 5?

If you already have a massive collection with everything, it will be an instant upgrade. For those of us who labour over each miniature and don't have dozens of every unit... it's going to take a while.
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 19:53

@Barking Agatha wrote:
It won't be that bad. Overall, I think it will be actually easier to win with Dark Eldar now... just not necessarily with the Dark Eldar that you want Sad  We already have Wyches, so Wyches are made... less good, but most of us don't have a lot of Wracks, for example. Time to go out and get more, because they've been made... gooder. And unbelievably, Mandrakes sound rather good now. Do you have more than 5?

If you already have a massive collection with everything, it will be an instant upgrade. For those of us who labour over each miniature and don't have dozens of every unit... it's going to take a while.

This is true, all true. I myself have ten wracks, though will have to buy a box of the new guys as I won't be fielding the liquifiers anymore unless they're free or have some special rule we haven't heard yet. I'd like to give ossefactors a try, and an alternate build on an Acothyst. I have a little bit of most things in the current book. Some of it got a bit better, some got a bit worse. Some of it I didn't use and now will be, some I didn't use and will carry on not using. I can't see there being anything I'm currently fielding being made totally redundant (but then I don't use beasts).

Also, I have ten mandrakes. Woot!
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Archon Rievect
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 19:59

Hey Believer, I just cannot fathom HOW they think upping points,killing off options and stats of stuff that WAS NOT OP in any way makes any sense at all,I mean the DE are all in all the most squishy vs points cost army in the whole damn game.... people bitch about my SOB's but they are actually in many ways MUCH better than the DE and the points are CHEAP!!!!!!!!!!! I just want another cool army to play..... I gave up my CSM marine armies because they either made them too costly,too limited in abilities, or just nerfed them too bad to even get a fun game from them..... and now this is happening to the DE... 5th ed codex not the best but until seeing the new one, have to think mostly better than the new one.... Naturally GW does not even bother to look at forums or read letters suggesting good balanced changes to codexes sent in from players,etc.... they just seem to use a yahtzee dice set,cup, dar board to make stupid changes and decisions....

Example- Wyches- instead of giving poisoned 4+ ccw,making save a 4++ period, lets take away HW,do not give poisoned, leave save a joke if they find themselves flat footed or vehicle blown up...

(maybe wrong cannot find the post)-Phatasm grenade launchers no do not count as GL's(!?) really,HOW is that thing OP and if it is nerfed- so what,you cannot assault into cover and you are at I1 with Archon and Incubi?

One thing that GW REALLY needs to clarify better is stuff that supposedly causes ID 'with no save possible','no save of any kind', along with the rules for things like the flesh gauntlet and Hex rifle- the whole'if model suffers unsaved wound,it takes blah blah test, if it fails it is removed from play...'  I always caught flak for these when people field the MC, high points IC's, chapter masters,Eternal warriors, whatever you can thing of........or they pull some fnp BS and try to negate it.. like wound,fail, do fnp, pass =ignores having to take the test, everything sunny.. dont think that is right(?)

'cause if you do fail an invul, do the test,you fail,you should suffer and remove the model but noooo eternal warrior,IWND rules just seem to allow the figure to take 1 wound instead....

I just do not the idiots at GW, if I worked there the stuff would actually need to be proof read for stupidity level..

Sorry if I went off course......

GOB,SORRY JUST VENTING tried self censoring....

Heh-heh, no worries AR, you did well! Very Happy Cheers.
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 20:15

I get your frustration, I do. But I still think DE hit pretty hard. From the looks of this codex, we should hit a little harder and don't seem to have been made squishier. I actually started a World Eaters army myself recently, which I'm loving even though it's not that competitive. I didn't have the previous CSM codex, however, so didn't have to make the transition.

I play to win. I always think people who say they don't care about winning are fibbing, because I really want to win. However, I find a style that works for me with an army I like, and I adapt it between editions and codexes. If they kept everything the same and just buffed odd units, people would begrudge paying for another book that was basically the same. We can't have it both ways Smile

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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 20:53

I'm with Barking Agatha. Reading the rumors the core things that make our army good are still there. Yeah I hate that wyches got nerfed but in competitive games I only used them for haywire. Trying to assault with wyches just makes the game harder. The more games I played I realized the archon was simply too expensive and rarely useful. Again he's an assault unit. It was fun dropping him on opponents with a grot squad or incubi but it wasn't as optimal as just taking a cheap haemonculus. Oh, so the point is yeah huskblade is ap3 and soul trap got nerfed. It's a fun gimmick but paying 145 points for it isn't worth it, when it can be eliminated by one S6 hit. Night shields were definitely a comparative edge against some armies in that sense it stays the same as anyone who cannot strip away cover saves has to deal with a vehicle that has a permanent 3+ save. That's fairly unheard of. Flicker fields were dropped by many because they were redundant with jink,, I admittedly purchased them because I'm paranoid, but in the end this could give you an extra unit in savings.Reavers My opinion, but I already thought fast attack was our weakest section. It still is. However now you can take razorwings  and venoms so that's an option. Reavers lost bladevane... Could be considered a Nerf, but honestly how competitive was bladevaning? Yeah, it's cool, but a venom does better for less points. Oh and if you think combat drugs are a Nerf, and I'd say they're about the same, what units have combat drugs? Well, hellions, blood brides, wyches, succubus, reavers, you know, the best units in the codex. Though if they extend combat drugs to reaver pilots on razorwings and void ravens, the +1 BS will be sexy.

The tactics you see in the majority of competitive DE lists is still there and in some instances better. It's all the fun things we liked to do that are missing. And maybe there will be new fun things. The few things I've mentioned sound good on paper, and they may not be optimal in the current book, but they could be optimal in the next.

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Siticus the Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 21:02

@Barking Agatha wrote:
It won't be that bad. Overall, I think it will be actually easier to win with Dark Eldar now... just not necessarily with the Dark Eldar that you want Sad  We already have Wyches, so Wyches are made... less good, but most of us don't have a lot of Wracks, for example. Time to go out and get more, because they've been made... gooder. And unbelievably, Mandrakes sound rather good now. Do you have more than 5?

If you already have a massive collection with everything, it will be an instant upgrade. For those of us who labour over each miniature and don't have dozens of every unit... it's going to take a while.

I feel your pain (and feed from it - I don't have THAT much painted wyches, at least!), and I'm in the same boat. That was the cause of my initial overreaction, and why a local DE player took the changes calmly - he simply has pretty much all the models in large amount, so taking more of X and less of Y is no problem to him, while it's not the case for me. Mostly I'm just grumpy about the fact that some of my themed forces might no longer do what I built them to do, and that sucks. Though, I suppose the coven stuff sounds interesting, and I am quite pleased by the Scourge rumour. Even then, that means I have to buy and convert lots of models to get back in the saddle, something that might take a long time.

I guess the only option is to wait for the codex. Saturday can't come soon enough!

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Crazy_Ivan
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 21:20

You can take venoms in fast attack slot?! Naked or with troops?
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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 22:46

I think it's reasonable to be wary or nervous, given the rumors, but for the love of the Muses, nobody should be freaking out or rage quitting at least until they have an actual book in their hands. Personally, I think I'll be spending at least a week thinking about it and reading what other people have to say before I reach any kind of judgement on it.

It's not unusual for the way an army works to be fundamentally changed with its new codex. While it's understandable to focus on what worked before - especially when it's what we already have models for - it's probably better to focus on what's going to work in the future.

Of course, for that, we need the book.
So we just need to not freak out for just a few more days.

I'm not that worried about not being able to win games with the new codex. It might be more difficult, but I can live with that.
I'm sad to see bladevaning go. It was a really fun and characterful rule, I have a bunch of reavers that I haven't had a chance to convert and assemble yet, so I'm sad I never got to use it. But I'm still excited to get those models converted and painted, even if they work differently.
I'm sad to see liquifiers get nerfed, because I loved liquifying things, but I'm sure my Haemonculi will have other options.
The thing that worries me most is Wyches. When I decided to completely redo my army, and to elaborately convert and paint every model to the limit of my abilities (because Dark Eldar are worth it), I decided to start with my Wych cult. I have a squad of Wyches that I spent months converting and painting. I'm currently working on their matching raider. It would be really sad if, after all that work, it no longer made sense to include those models in my games.

I'm impatient and nervous, like a lot of people. I have various models sitting half-converted while I wait to learn how I'll want to equip them. I have a lot of plans for future Dark Eldar projects that I'll probably have to change or scrap. But I doubt the army, overall, will become unplayable.

We don't really know much of anything until we have the book.

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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 23:28

@Calyptra wrote:


I'm impatient and nervous, like a lot of people. I have various models sitting half-converted while I wait to learn how I'll want to equip them. I have a lot of plans for future Dark Eldar projects that I'll probably have to change or scrap. But I doubt the army, overall, will become unplayable.

We don't really know much of anything until we have the book.

Exactly Smile

I currently have an armless Succubus waiting to be equipped dependent on rules and options, though seeing as I only got her because she was going cheap (FLGS having a clearout of old metal models), I might still pick up the new one. Really liking the look of that mini, and if the agoniser arm is easily swappable so I don't have to pay through the roof to kit her out without wrecking the mini, I might get that one anyway. I already swapped the somewhat... equine head on the old one for a plastic wych head. I'm not terribly attached to her.
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 23:31

Oh! If I can legitimately be mad about something though?

I just bought a pack of harlequins and a spirit seer about a month or two ago. Those could have been wracks, or with a little extra a voidraven. Now they're just there. Laughing at me. They're Harlequins so you know they're laughing at me.

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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 23:40

That is incredibly unfortunate Sad Eldar allies? Plastic Farseer and a squad of Windriders would legalise them. But that depends on how much you want to actually run them and whether you're prepared to ally Eldar in. Doubtless this has already occurred to you anyway. You could give the Farseer the mantle to theme the list a bit more I suppose...

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notts
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Tue Sep 30 2014, 23:55

I stopped buying or painting anything after may when I went to a friendly gaming event. Figured book would new coming_ and last one was janked.

I'm not buying new book until I read comprehensive breakdown!
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Wed Oct 01 2014, 00:01

@notts wrote:
I stopped buying or painting anything after may when I went to a friendly gaming event. Figured book would new coming_ and last one was janked.

I'm not buying new book until I read comprehensive breakdown!

Have no fear, I'm sure there are plenty itching to share info when the new book hits! I have it pre-ordered and will be helping out as much as copyright and IP law allows. I would like to do a tactica thread going over what's changed and potential uses for new stuff, but I suspect somebody else will be already be planning to do this, and I can't get straight to it on the day. I'll gladly contribute if someone preempts me!
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Wed Oct 01 2014, 00:32

Well, I planned ahead for the release. In my mind I figured, "Well, if there one models' rules they're bound not to touch it's harlequins. They never mess with those really. Should be a safe buy, love the fluff, my painting might actually be good enough to make them presentable." Whoops!

And Mr. Believer thank you, but I had thought of that. Unfortunately, I just despise craftworld eldar. And I won't use them no matter how much GW tries to push them on me.

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