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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Thu Oct 02 2014, 11:12

I am saddened by a lot of the changes and things I hoped would happen but didn't, but there's a lot of other stuff I'm rather excited to try out personally.

I'm glad the 4 weapon scourge squad is coming back.

I like that there are some ways to get 4+ feel no pain on a lot of units.

I love the extra fast attack slots and that razorwing was moved there, especially since I'm finding hellions, reavers, scourges, and razorwings all pretty solid choices. I'm going to have a hard time saving a fast attack for a venom to deepstrike some fire dragons in.

I believe I'll even get some mandrakes now and give them a go since they get what a lot of people asked for, automatic baleblast and a point reduction. The stealth shrouded combo is really hard to dislodge too.
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agosyb
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Thu Oct 02 2014, 11:44

The only thing I feel they missed out on is a phenomenal model for Vect and his Dais, but oh well!

So a quick compilation of some of the new nasty:
* (potentially) 2+ poison ap3, 2+ inv that lasts to end of phase on failure, Archon slayer of mooks.
* the court is no longer restricted, you may have wanted a llamean for the above anyway, medusae are str 4 ap 3 templates now iirc, and the wwp is a DS with no scatter. So potentially frying a large amount of MEQs for an admittedly large investment. If you wanna go crazy sslyth can provide majority T5.
* The armor of fear is a -2 leadership debuff to enemies within 6 that aren't space marines, this obviously combos with PGLs and tormentor grenades very well for anything else. Can be taken on a succubus and reportedly is not that expensive, segue to next point.
* The cheap succubus and grots in a raider was a strictly good unit and has gotten better for little to no pts increase it looks like.
* Razorwings are at a 5 point discount with lances OR spl cannon, or straight up 15 point discount with no upgrades and in FA, the new FA formation allows for 6 FA. Three razors clocks in at 390 pts standard kit.
* New reavers and scourges discounted with more weapon options and still usable with fighter/bomber spam in new formation (I think).
* Reavers with cheaper base cost can move and fire heat lances/blasters, take advantage of jink, and then HoW with caltrops next turn if I'm looking at this right, basically with caltrops included the points of the unit may come out to about the same as now.
* The beast pack sans beastmaster tax rolling with a shard of anaris farseer on a jetbike is still a thing for cheaper, obviously go for invis, you're missing out on hit and run now
* Looks like the trick will be surviving until at least second turn and reserves arriving, along with surviving to late game in general with how the new pfp works. Using fortifications, comms relay, and the manhole to move up-field will probably be a thing.
* Own that sky. Two venoms will pretty reliably crush an autocannon turret on turn one.
* Use the TGLs on mooks, scourge an hero with 4 haywires/reavers with lances/everyone else with lances on the vehicles, and the flyers and archon can wipe the floor with MEQs pretty handily.

Or get meaty? 6 Talos, 3 Cronos, and maxed grots with cheap succubus leads is a serious amount of beef. The Talos liquifier being twin-linked offsets its new nerf pretty well, so if a unit's going to use it it may as well be them. Also Dark Eldar, unusually, have the dubious honor of having MCs a cut above the standard (S/T 6) with S/T 7, so you can abuse that versus maybe nids or chaos monster mash. Eldar will out beef you, but that's what the poisoned shooting is for.

Sorry, that wasn't a quick compilation and I more or less rehashed what has been said. But I felt like typing =/


Last edited by agosyb on Fri Oct 03 2014, 06:08; edited 1 time in total
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jbwms713
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Thu Oct 02 2014, 13:45

A (hopefully) brief compilation of what *I personally* consider to be buffs/nerfs, along with some "power shifts" and other notes... in part because we have more solid information (Thank you to Scorpion!) and also to answer some of the "How can you be so positive, this seems utter crap to me!" posts.

Bad Things:
Wyches lost haywire. Not something I used personally, but obviously a loss of a solid option.
Talos up in points, with no movement adjustment.
Lack of AP2 on Archon
"Standard" Ravagers becoming more expensive, and lost Aerial Assault.
Liquifiers to S3
Beasts debuffed in general.
Splinter Cannon = Salvo, Plus 5 points more on Infantry

Good Things:
Aggoniser on Archon moving to Poison, allowing for re-rolls with FC or Soul Trap boosts.
Succubus gained Glaive, which points dependent will be a solid go-to weapon for a still-cheap HQ.
Court opened up, allowing for an actually useful unit.
Reavers have Harder CC punch with Rending HoW, cheaper - *maybe* effective?
Mandrakes finally valid.
Venoms in FA opens up for a vyper equivalent, allies, or that special Archon in your life.
Razorwing cheaper (even after paying for Lances - 130 base is great!), and in FA.
Scourges much cheaper, and given 4 weapons. Twice the Haywire for less points.
WWP valid tactic.


I'm sure I've missed some, it's early, I'm tired, and I have to leave for work in a couple of minutes. But I can easily list one good change for every negative one.
Probably the biggest hit for me personally is the change to Ravagers - they have epitomized the feel of the Dark Eldar for so long; Fast, Deadly, yet Fragile... but now they're just an overloaded and more expensive vehicle.
But, I have to ask myself not what the Ravager can do, but what the army can do. Maybe I'll stop taking Ravagers. But will I have issues popping tanks? I have Reavers that can still turbo up and target rear armor on vehicles with heat lances and combat. I have blasterborn. I have more effective Haywire Scourges.

I'm starting to think that the formation we have will be incredibly widely used. Although we lose the re-roll on warlord and other Bound benefits, don't we? But 6 FA is going to be a pretty big thing (not that we can't easily get that with two normal charts as it is).

If the soul trap is easy enough to pull off (which, sadly, requires challenges), then the Agonizer is going to turn into a lawn-mower. With a couple of wounds done, you're looking at a S5 Archon - that's re-rolling vs Marines. A very reliable, steady source of wounds against all but the heaviest of targets. We'll see if this becomes a viable thing or not, though.

Gotta run.


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Selvhan
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Thu Oct 02 2014, 15:36

From what I can read so far, I don't like how they changed the codex. I'm not saying it's bad or good. In my point of view, I simply don't like it.

Its smell too much like they changed the codex to sell some models. Just too much.

I'll wait until I have the book in hand to fix my opinion but so far I can't say I am impressed.

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Crazy_Ivan
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Thu Oct 02 2014, 16:06

If we take the formation we should still be battle forged.
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Thu Oct 02 2014, 16:29

jbwms713 wrote:
Step one.
Now.  New codices bring changes.  Power shifts, unit value and purpose changes... it happens.  What we need to focus on is not how unit A is effected, or how our favorite model or wargear will function, but rather how the army as a whole will work, and if necessary roles can be successfully filled.

Agreed. However since this is a realistic assessment, there are great possibilities that we might have to ally with Eldar to plug the holes. With that I will proceed.

Quote :

Vehicles -
The core concept is the same.  Relatively cheap (Raiders down, huzzah), fast as all get-out, flimsy.  All still true.  Flickerfields not being available to Raiders (I've heard that some vehicles can get them?) does not affect me personally much... I stopped taking them once Jink was a thing.  I do however realize that many other players still made extensive use, and don't blame them for it per se.  More of a personal choice.  If FF's are a must in your eyes, then extensive Venom use is in your future... but hey, it's not like Venoms are bad, and they don't seem to have been touched.

Personally I am the least affected by this as I tend to run all my things with the most minimalistic of upgrades, and most often those upgrades are offensive upgrades.

The fact that Salvo 4/6 means jack nothing on the Venom and now they can be taken as Fast attack options means that now some Eldar units like Banshees and Scorpions will now have something to bring them closer to their targets.

Quote :

Voidraven in my eyes is moot.  More expensive base cost, traded armor for a larger blast on the bomb.  Plus new weapon that makes it a great bomber, but takes away from the real draw of S9 lances.  I expect a lightly used option to continue to be lightly used, but maybe there will be some hidden gem mixed in there.  Shrug.  I'll not complain about a unit I never used anyway.

To be honest, I believe that this will be our go to Heavy Support with the nerfs to the Ravager. I have noticed that in 7th edition, the ravagers are already having difficulty doing their thing as most people will fire on them and force them to jink or if you put on the Flickerfield, take the 5+. So most of the time they will already be snap-firing their weapons.

The same can also be said about our dear Voidraven, but due to it being a Flyer, it will take a lot more shots to get the Raven, and with the Nightshield upgrade most of the time you can be surviving some ridiculous odds. Also once you have jinked you can definitely fly off the table to fire at full BS again.

That saying, I always see our aircrafts as large firecrackers; they come in with a bang and they die with a bang. Ravagers are the best lance-spammers in our army if all you need are lances. However with the Knights running around, sometimes all we need is that extra strength from the Void lances to kill the damn thing.

Quote :

Razor's to FA opens that up, and solves the "flyer vs ravager" conundrum.  Unfortunate that it's still a far better anti-troop option than anti-air, which we need, and if it also got a price bump then that's very annoying, but I don't think 15 points will break any lists (well, math may disagree, but we'll see).  Honestly not competing with Ravagers may be enough of a break to open this craft up.  At least if I go back to an anti-infantry build I'm not stealing pain token kills from my infantry units.

Fast Attack Razorwings are definitely a godsend, and it does open up more options with our heavy support.

I can definitely see those Dark Eldar army that are air force centric will be allying in an Autarch for that reserve manipulation to allow all the flyers, Ravens and Razorwings, to swarm in a turn and blasting everything left, right and center.

Quote :

Splinter racks working willy-nilly will open up some hilarious, if potentially not cost-effective options... but I'm hoping this doesn't come at a drastic price increase.  Our boats don't handle expensive upgrades well.
Aether Sails as a flat +6" to Flat Out I like.  Granted, I never used them, and I may continue that trend... but a known bonus you can count on.  Random distances give false hopes.

These options are for the brave souls that like to come up close. Personally I am always a fan of the splinter rack as they always did wonders for me.

As for the Aethersail, if you need a particular unit to be in a particular place, this is the upgrade for you. However I do not see myself using this upgrade.

Quote :

Tormentor Grenade Launchers... this is the one I'm most curious about.  If it fails to affect marines/fearless, I think too many armies will be immune to make it a worthwhile upgrade.  However I love the idea that they're bringing back Ld-based shenanigans, and if it's actually just a psy-scream effect, then that en masse is... scary.  I've read in some places that it specifically doesn't work vs Fearless/ATSKNF, and in others that's only specified for the Archangel of Pain.

This one works against blobs, which is perhaps one of our most troublesome type of units. I personally like it that we can actually stack enough of it to cause blobs to run off the table. IF you want to make Marine units run away, then there is something very odd going on as we have enough firepower to wipe them out of the table easily.

This can be combined with Telepathy discipline to cause even more headaches for these armies.

Quote :

Archons and their playthings:
Now here's an interesting one.  Please note that I used the Huskblade.  A lot.  All the time, actually.  So this is said from someone who made extensive use of an AP2 insta-death weapon.

I really don't think it matters that much.

Realistically, there are relatively few units running around with a 2+ save.  Of those, there are less that we really would have wanted the Archon in combat with, for reasons that we already know, have been hashed, etc etc.
The question is, what will the new weapons be useful for?

First, the Huskblade is a cheaper, if more specialized (by far) big-game hunter.  While you can go for broke aiming to force a failed save vs death, or stick to big-but-3+'d targets... frankly I'll probably go back to the Agonizer.  See below.
The Aggy gaining poison is potentially huge.  If (and a big if) the Llahmean maintains her 2+ poison-sharing, then we just gained easy access to a wounds-on-2+, AP3 weapon.  That is not a bad thing by any stretch.  Even if this is not an option, becoming proper-poison means that enhancing your strength will have serious benefits.
A segue to the Soul Trap.  Another trinket I used every time my Archon came out to play.  The idea of a S6 monster was just too wonderful to pass up.  But if I'm honest, it very rarely came into play in a timely fashion.  Requiring an IC/MC was often difficult to set up, and there were few games indeed that I really got to rampage in a fashion that I thought fitting (although I do have a nice list of souls that I've trapped over the years, and need to add a Riptide to that list from a tournament the other day...).
Triggering off of any challenge makes for far more targets on the board.  Yes, the enemy can refuse your initial challenges, and if this alone makes the 'trap not worth taking, then we won't take it.  Denying isn't *always* the best course, and I think the proliferation of targets is definitely a boon. The bonus is less, but easier to get, and even just S4 with Furious Charge means a re-roll vs Marines.

More importantly, I think the Archon is stepping into the role of reliable lawn mower.  Ignore challenges and soul trap potential - just look at what he'll do to a squad of Marines.  A Djinn Blade is all of the current bonuses, with no chance of insta-death.  If it simply grants bonus attacks (as in, you can use a different weapon's rules), then we're looking at 8 attacks on the charge (without factoring Drugs or Rage).  That's... not a small number.  No promises it'll work that way, as the 'what things do' are vague.

I never though of my Archon as a challenger, but more of a tanker. The Shadowfield is there to hold down and tank hits from nasty ICs that my squad will not be fond of, while the rest of my squad will go about slaughtering the rest of the other squad. The Djinn Blade's price increased for a reason and if one is willing to take the risk, combining the Djinn blade and the Soul-trap will be a retarded combination.  

Of course we must not discard the fact that with the new Webway portal and how the new Shadowfield works, the Archon is perhaps the toughest of the Dark Eldar ICs to be a webway portal carrier. Attach him to a squad of Wraithguards and teleport down to see many things like Centurions, Thunderwolves and even Knights go down faster than a 1-dollar hooker. He is THE main guy to solve things we could not possibly touch before. And with the general rules stating that the toughness of the majority of the unit will be taken, we have a T6 2++ archon tanking hits to make things easier for our dear friends or they will tank for him for shots that would rip apart a normal Dark Eldar.

Quote :

Succubus?  same thing on the Glaive.  Again, I'm not sure where two-handed becomes Unwieldy (and sadly can't access my book right now).. and this is me just being ignorant of possible rules I should know.  But it's kind of the same story.  AP3 honestly is fine in 90% of situations, and in the 10% that you simply must have AP2 to be effective, you have that option.  Perhaps we will see the Succubus rise as our challenge character?  Well.  You'd have to survive to strike, which may be laughable... we tend to be squishy without a shadowfield.  

So, no... "having the option at a cost" is not as good as just being better (read: ap2 all the time).  But having that option could very well be enough.  The majority of the time we were already better shooting these hard units into oblivion, where our poison ignores their high toughness, or our lances ignore their amazing armor (or dissies, which may see more play as AP2 is more wanted).
The real question is "can we deal with 2+ saves", and I think the answer is yes... it may just come from shooting almost exclusively.  But seriously.  Would we rather have it only come from combat?  This edition hates combat almost to the point of futility.

I would honestly like to know if she could take the soul-trap. If she could, you will see her running around with that glaive of hers slaughtering things and become essentially a monster for an affordable price.

Quote :

Other Arcane Wargear.... er... Relics.
So the Archangel not being useful vs half of things is pretty silly.  But a piece of Wargear we took once for a laugh still being that piece of wargear we take once for a laugh is hardly a downside.

Special ghostplate could be really cool.  If not too expensive, the -2 Ld bubble could do really nasty things.
Poison Pistol that regains wounds?  Dependent on cost, but I think this could be a staple piece of kit.  Even vs marines, you basically have gear that says "on a 5+ in the shooting phase, you kill a dude and gain a wound".  Again, completely dependent on cost.
Helm thing - awesome effect.  A really, really awesome effect, that has a legitimate use vs Psykers.  Another thing that will be a very cool addition if the price is right.
I feel like I'm forgetting one.  Oh well.

The Animus Vitae. That gear would be essential if you need to move the PfP clock quicker. I personally would wonder how best to trigger it due to the short range of the weapon.

Quote :

Price decreases in a lot of places.  Cheaper bodies really do add up, and may just be enough to start including some of that more fun arcane gear.

I think we can spam even more vehicles than before.....which is a good thing I guess.

Quote :

Talos... yeah.  Sorry guys.  I was never much of a coven user.  I guess a lot of the hate got thrown that way.  S3 liquifiers is lame.  Talos going to 3 attacks generally is lame.  Going 1-3 is only good, but it doesn't help if the unit isn't worth taking.  Maybe being able to mix a Cronos into a unit to buff with Spirit Probe, etc, will make the unit as a whole worth doing... hard to tell at this point.

I think they work better in a Coven army. Different playstyle for sure.

Quote :

No haywire on Wyches?  Another thing I didn't touch much, but many did.  I am told by a friend that he saw a rumor about Bloodbrides having them, which would basically allow the same tactic (just from elites), but I can't verify that personally.  
Perhaps Scourges will have 4 weapons per squad regardless of size (saw a hint in that direction somewhere) so haywire scourges may replace that.  It's a tough thing to replace, I'm ready and willing to admit.

I will admit that I used Haywire Wyches to great effect in a tournament and they brought me to the top table for a tournament back in my country. However at the same time, they can be quite a hit and miss, as the vehicle that carries them might blow up and kill all of them before they could do anything. In addition, due to their specialized role as tankbusters, sometimes you get armies that it is utterly useless against.

Scourges with Haywire Blasters is a good unit, no doubt about that. It is just that you need to use a combination of units to make the scourges kill things reliably. Wyches with Haywire can destroy all vehicles by themselves without any support, freeing up units to kill things that matter.

Quote :

Power from Pain - I rather like this system.  I also like that they kept Heamy's as a good support option on this front.  I'm eager to see how it plays out, and I'm glad we get FnP early on still.

Personally I think this mechanic is what we need to get a late-game play. Most of the time, we are too geared for the 3-turn kill, and by the time we moved to the 4th turn, we either will be slaughtering too much or being slaughtered too much. This mechanic keeps things more balanced for us.

Quote :

Combat Drugs - basically the same.  Most still give an appreciable combat-boost (WS,S,A, and even T).  Init is good for rundowns, but we mostly out-init other armies, and Ld will ... well... it's the one you grimace at until it keeps your unit from falling back in that one combat you really wanted to hold.

Drugs are interesting, but so far I need to see how it works with the other units like Reavers and Hellions to actually have a good understanding of how the new drug rule affects Dark Eldar.

Sadly enough, the Archon no longer get the option to take drugs from what the rumours are saying. Or else the Archon will be quite a nasty ass.

Quote :

Yeah, that was huge.  Sorry, kids.  I tried to be fairly comprehensive... I know factually that I left some things out, but that's because I'm tired and there's a lot there already, and I can't remember everything.
In the end... Personally, I have a relatively decent outlook on this book.  I know we've lost some things, but I do think that the army still has the tools it needs.  And hey, didn't someone say our Lances got cheaper?  I'm hoping that passes to Blasters, too, but who knows.

Personally I believed that the Dark Eldar got what they wished for when it comes to solving a set of general problems, but in returned for this bargain we sold the souls of some of our existing units to get a new set of  general problems. Some things are unavoidable such as the nerfing of Beastar and the removal of special characters without models (Though Vect comes as an odd surprise, but wlll have to reserve judgment until I read the fluff to see why he is not i the codex).

Generally our core mechanic still remains the same; hit hard and run even harder. However the units in which we use to get that effect are new players in the field, and as Mushkilla said before, this will be a new puzzle for us to figure out.


My prediction so far is that we will see our army being more of a layered attacking force, as we will be deepstriking, infiltrating, and moving really fast to crush things down rather than our rather straightforward chivalrous play that we had (when I said chivalrous I am talking about deploying everything on the table and rushing the opponent). And more than ever before, our timing must be impeccable to get the most damage at the right moment at the right tempo.

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Thu Oct 02 2014, 18:30

I see some positives out of all this, and here they are:
1. Deep Strike on all vehicles at combat speed.
2. Aethersails still cost 5 points, now give you 24" of TB movement, and no longer stops passengers from shooting next round.
3. Stealth Jinking is a 3+ cover, Ignore Cover sucks, but it's still better than nothing.

When you combine all these together, you might be able to do some stuff. I'm not saying this release is good, it really kills me inside, but this above is as good as it's going to get.

You literally do not need the Voidraven Bomber at all. It's 160 stock with 2x VLs and the mine without any upgrades, if you take missiles on it the price goes up, and you can only buy them in bunches of 4. So no matter what, you're paying extra for them. I still think 3x Ravagers will be default in Heavy, especially now that the Razorwing went to FA.

With that said, a pure DE army would probably look like:
Succubus
6x Raiders in core with at least 3x gunboats, 1x Wyches, 2x min Warriors blasterboats.
3x Venoms with Blasterborn in Elite.
A unit of Reavers
A single Razorwing
3x Ravagers

I know that's what I would take my first rodeo.

Otherwise, I plan on doing more DS/Reserve Insertion with Autarchs/Voidravens and WWPs.

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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Thu Oct 02 2014, 18:40

HERO wrote:
I see some positives out of all this, and here they are:
1. Deep Strike on all vehicles at combat speed.
2. Aethersails still cost 5 points, now give you 24" of TB movement, and no longer stops passengers from shooting next round.
3. Stealth Jinking is a 3+ cover, Ignore Cover sucks, but it's still better than nothing.

When you combine all these together, you might be able to do some stuff. I'm not saying this release is good, it really kills me inside, but this above is as good as it's going to get.

You literally do not need the Voidraven Bomber at all. It's 160 stock with 2x VLs and the mine without any upgrades, if you take missiles on it the price goes up, and you can only buy them in bunches of 4. So no matter what, you're paying extra for them. I still think 3x Ravagers will be default in Heavy, especially now that the Razorwing went to FA.

With that said, a pure DE army would probably look like:
Succubus
6x Raiders in core with at least 3x gunboats, 1x Wyches, 2x min Warriors blasterboats.
3x Venoms with Blasterborn in Elite.
A unit of Reavers
A single Razorwing
3x Ravagers

I know that's what I would take my first rodeo.

Otherwise, I plan on doing more DS/Reserve Insertion with Autarchs/Voidravens and WWPs.

I actually don't see wyches in many lists. I see grots wrapped around a haemonculus being a thing, for the increased PFP and fnp. And scourges could potentially replace or supplement blasterborn if you have to take 5. Scourges have more reliable AT now, which we lost with wyches.

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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Thu Oct 02 2014, 18:42

From what it looks like, the price for my standard gunboat will be..

In the last book..
10x Warriors (Raider FF/SR, Blaster, SC) = 195

That means the Raider has Splinter Racks and Flickerfields.

In the new book..
10x Warriors (Raider NS/SR/AS, Blaster, SC) = 195

Night Shields replace the FF and you gain points to buy Aethersails (which btw, should be on every vehicle that can take it).

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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Thu Oct 02 2014, 18:45

The first two strategies I'm going to start looking to explore or list build when I get my codex tomorrow will be anti-psyker shenanigans, and keeping most of my army off the table for as long as possible, using Mandrakes to hopefully keep from getting tabled until my fashionably late forces show up.

I also happened to be pretty focused on working on my Wych Cult during all of this, so I'm going to see if I can make a small Cult list work (Succubus, Wyches, Reavers, Beast pack, maybe Bloodbrides if I have an epiphany on how to convert them, and the Haemonculus who makes their drugs).

I have a feeling the new book will not be kind to fluffy lists, but I'm going to try anyway.

Then I'll see what I can do for a Kabal-themed list. Coven will wait til the next book.

There's plenty I don't like about the book, especially the loss of bladevanes and the liquifier nerf, but I'm still excited to get started trying to make it work.

And I don't think anybody's said this yet, but I'm also really excited for whatever new art and flavor it may contain.


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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Thu Oct 02 2014, 18:46

Expletive Deleted wrote:
I actually don't see wyches in many lists. I see grots wrapped around a haemonculus being a thing, for the increased PFP and fnp. And scourges could potentially replace  or supplement blasterborn if you have to take 5. Scourges have more reliable AT now, which we lost with wyches.

I don't play with nasty Haemonculi.  Those basement-dwellers can stay where they are.

If the Succubus points stayed the same, Agonizer/Archite Glaive will put her at 105 points.  I think this will be her best build if your goal will be CC, since you'll benefit from the double specialist weapons for +1 attack.

I guess you can can a cheap Archon as well for a little bit more.  Shadowfield, Soul Trap, Huskblade makes him 135.

This is without any of the fancy new artefacts. I only see Wyches as a bodyguard unit now, 1 max per army if you're taking a CC Archon or Succubus.

I also see Autarchs playing a heavier role in our army than an allied Farseer because of our vehicles ability to DS.

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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Thu Oct 02 2014, 18:58

Now don't get me wrong, I love the succubus, and the improvements make her look super sexy sweet, she could be considered the only cult unit to actually improve with this release, but they didn't improve one thing she needed. I ran one almost exclusively for months and she suffers severely from not having a decent save in or out of combat. Her dodge should at least be better than a normal wych. I fixed this by wrapping her inside 4 grotesques, and this will still work and be great. But the synergy the haemonculus is going to bring to a pack of grots IMO is going to trump the killiness of the new succubus.

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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Thu Oct 02 2014, 19:07

Expletive Deleted wrote:
Now don't get me wrong, I love the succubus, and the improvements make her look super sexy sweet, she could be considered the only cult unit to actually improve with this release, but they didn't improve one thing she needed. I ran one almost exclusively for months and she suffers severely from not having a decent save in or out of combat. Her dodge should at least be better than a normal wych. I fixed this by wrapping her inside 4 grotesques, and this will still work and be great. But the synergy the haemonculus is going to bring to a pack of grots IMO is going to trump the killiness of the new succubus.

Agreed, but I still don't run the yucky Haemonculi units :>

I will probably have her with a unit of Wyches and call it a day.

A unit of 9x in a Raider, NS, AS, with the Hekatrix and Agonizer/Haywire is 200 points on the nose. The Succubus herself runs 110 with the Agonizer/Archite Glaive/Hawywire for a unit that's semi-decent in combat for 310 points. It will make marines cry, but you need to stay away from Terminators.

The Archon, I think is dead in the water. Just too expensive for a S3 dude with no way to take Combat Drugs. Too bad, because the Huskblade is literally the coolest melee weapon I've ever read about fluff-wise.

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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Thu Oct 02 2014, 19:13

HERO wrote:
Expletive Deleted wrote:
Now don't get me wrong, I love the succubus, and the improvements make her look super sexy sweet, she could be considered the only cult unit to actually improve with this release, but they didn't improve one thing she needed. I ran one almost exclusively for months and she suffers severely from not having a decent save in or out of combat. Her dodge should at least be better than a normal wych. I fixed this by wrapping her inside 4 grotesques, and this will still work and be great. But the synergy the haemonculus is going to bring to a pack of grots IMO is going to trump the killiness of the new succubus.

Agreed, but I still don't run the yucky Haemonculi units :>

I will probably have her with a unit of Wyches and call it a day.

A unit of 9x in a Raider, NS, AS, with the Hekatrix and Agonizer/Haywire is 200 points on the nose.  The Succubus herself runs 110 with the Agonizer/Archite Glaive/Hawywire for a unit that's semi-decent in combat for 310 points.  It will make marines cry, but you need to stay away from Terminators.

The Archon, I think is dead in the water.  Just too expensive for a S3 dude with no way to take Combat Drugs.  Too bad, because the Huskblade is literally the coolest melee weapon I've ever read about fluff-wise.

You could try wrapping her in incubi, they're cheaper now. The armor save will help immensely and you can go scare terminators too.

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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Thu Oct 02 2014, 19:22

Expletive Deleted wrote:
HERO wrote:
Expletive Deleted wrote:
Now don't get me wrong, I love the succubus, and the improvements make her look super sexy sweet, she could be considered the only cult unit to actually improve with this release, but they didn't improve one thing she needed. I ran one almost exclusively for months and she suffers severely from not having a decent save in or out of combat. Her dodge should at least be better than a normal wych. I fixed this by wrapping her inside 4 grotesques, and this will still work and be great. But the synergy the haemonculus is going to bring to a pack of grots IMO is going to trump the killiness of the new succubus.

Agreed, but I still don't run the yucky Haemonculi units :>

I will probably have her with a unit of Wyches and call it a day.

A unit of 9x in a Raider, NS, AS, with the Hekatrix and Agonizer/Haywire is 200 points on the nose.  The Succubus herself runs 110 with the Agonizer/Archite Glaive/Hawywire for a unit that's semi-decent in combat for 310 points.  It will make marines cry, but you need to stay away from Terminators.

The Archon, I think is dead in the water.  Just too expensive for a S3 dude with no way to take Combat Drugs.  Too bad, because the Huskblade is literally the coolest melee weapon I've ever read about fluff-wise.

You could try wrapping her in incubi, they're cheaper now. The armor save will help immensely and you can go scare terminators too.

No grenade options for them though.. and the Succubus has no way to take a PGL.

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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Thu Oct 02 2014, 19:41

HERO wrote:


No grenade options for them though.. and the Succubus has no way to take a PGL.

Ah crap, I forgot about that. Which is funny because that's why I never mixed them together. Its silly on the rules part as well. A hekatrix can take them. A syren can take them. But once you become a succubus I guess you're just too good to wear them now.

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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Thu Oct 02 2014, 23:06

PGL's don't give grenades to the unit anymore anyway. They Soulfright, which is unfortunately useless vs probably a solid half of all armies.

Seriously, that move was kind of pathetic. Shrug.

I'm really liking the idea of a Heamy WWP'ing in with a few Grotesques on foot. So many things about it, from fluff to game-play, scream "DO IT!!!". Ahem.

On the Succubus, I believe she can at least take the Relics, which means fancy Ghost Plate, for a 4+. No idea if she has access to a Clone Field, but that would be a nice way to give her some protection. Just call it the quicksilver dodge upgrade, if you don't like the idea of a Succubus using fancy tech to help win her battles.

Ravagers are the biggest thing for me... the new price probably won't be a huge deal, considering how much costs have dropped overall... but losing Aerial Assault is a big, big thing for them. I could stomach 130 points (ish) for 3 mobile lances. But can I stomach that much for not-quite-3 mobile lances? Questionable. I'll probably try them out, and actually use them as more static firebases. Use the Night Shield to actually jump into a forest or something, and benefit from a 4+ regardless of movement.

And did I mention Mandrakes are a thing now? Heh. Yeah. Mandrakes. Finally.

And as much as many people dislike allies, they're just part of the standard now, and I have to think that they're considered heavily when redoing books. Banshees are pretty sad in the Eldar book, but Banshees riding in a Venom? Suddenly a good delivery system. Same for Scorpians. Or what about Dark Reapers? Seriously. Dark Reapers in a Venom.

I think I just found my next conversion project.
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Fri Oct 03 2014, 02:15

Quote :
Ravagers are the biggest thing for me... the new price probably won't be a huge deal, considering how much costs have dropped overall

Actually, as I've shown above, a lot of the actually haven't dropped in price. Blasterborn in Venoms being cheaper is offset by more expensive Ravagers. Gunboats are also the same prince, but you gain Aethersails.

My army from the old book, literally stayed the same price because of the Ravager points hike.

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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Fri Oct 03 2014, 02:18

jbwms713 wrote:

And as much as many people dislike allies, they're just part of the standard now, and I have to think that they're considered heavily when redoing books.  Banshees are pretty sad in the Eldar book, but Banshees riding in a Venom?  Suddenly a good delivery system.  Same for Scorpians.  

Nah, Scorps don't need it, just outflank them or infiltrate them somewhere sensible, they've got the armour and the cover saves to stand up for a turn until they get into the fight. Might as well save yourself the points. Banshees in aRaider though. Oh myyyy...

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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Fri Oct 03 2014, 02:41

HERO wrote:
Quote :
Ravagers are the biggest thing for me... the new price probably won't be a huge deal, considering how much costs have dropped overall

Actually, as I've shown above, a lot of the actually haven't dropped in price.  Blasterborn in Venoms being cheaper is offset by more expensive Ravagers.  Gunboats are also the same prince, but you gain Aethersails.

My army from the old book, literally stayed the same price because of the Ravager points hike.

So, just to make sure I understand... when I say that the price hike on Ravagers is likely to be absorbed by decreases in most other places, you disagree, saying that you did, in fact, break even.

And yes, I suppose if you take a cheaper unit, and pay for extra upgrades that you can now afford, it ends up costing the same.

I get that you're not really happy with the new book, and that's fine - I've had releases that I haven't liked, and I'm not here to tell you to cheer up, bucko, everything is sooo gooood.... but seriously? You're just trying to make these things sound bad by saying the *exact same thing* that I'm saying.

The cost of Ravagers isn't really what gets me (15-20 extra points? Really not a *huge* deal, if enough to be annoying)... it's the lack of mobility.

Who knows, maybe some new options will open up and make them worth it in the end. Utilizing existing cover rather than jinking (with stealth) will be a must for them (which, of course, is harder with a 6" effective move). Maybe trying to DS to weaker rear armor is going to be more worth the risk... but really, couldn't a WWP'd unit do a better job of it? Hmm...

Ah well. If ravagers are garbage now, then they're garbage. I'll instead take units that aren't garbage, and I have a pretty nice selection of those (many of which function quite nicely in an anti-tank role).
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Fri Oct 03 2014, 03:11

My gunboat without any new things changed 5 points. Less.

Naked ravagers changed 20 points each for lances. More.

Blaster born in venoms are slightly less. My hq stayed the same.

Therefore, the army stayed the same price. That's all I'm saying l. Feel free to buy scourges though, I don't own a single one.

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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Fri Oct 03 2014, 06:04

A very similar thing happened with the guard book. On their release my Guard friend punched the numbers on what usually is his armylist and it was a wash. Some prices went up, some went down. The WAAC community generally just looks for what went down and how to spam it. Also there's no flagrantly powerful units in the book like Codex:Heldrake or Codex:Waveserpent, but that's fine really. 40k has been moving to this design point where the only way to counter BS is with new, even more BS. In effect it still is with LoW and Str D weapons being allowed in the base game, but with the removal of a Force Org chart you may as well just take whats good and claim objectives with them.

That's the game we play now. Don't worry about your two troops and an HQ, or how you're gonna score. Does this codex bring many tools to that fight? Probably not, but Dark Eldar have always approached apoc style games with flyers and multiple waves of suicide lances, so its not like much has changed in that regard either.
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Fri Oct 03 2014, 09:05

agosyb wrote:
with the removal of a Force Org chart you may as well just take whats good and claim objectives with them.

You know units in an unbound army can't claim objectives, right?

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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Fri Oct 03 2014, 09:28

Everything can claim objectives now, even transports.

but cannot contest against a unit with objective secured.
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PostSubject: Re: The new supremacy   Fri Oct 03 2014, 09:29

The_Burning_Eye wrote:
agosyb wrote:
with the removal of a Force Org chart you may as well just take whats good and claim objectives with them.

You know units in an unbound army can't claim objectives, right?

Yes they can. Unbound just don't get ObSec

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